Lots of news about the poor mexican illegals who just want to work.  Wish they'd head to the north east where they seem to be understoon instead of in the racist west coast.

This is the news that will come to your neighborhoods when they come. don't fool yourself and think it will be differen if they have a green card or if there is CIR. there will always be those who don't qualify to come in because of what ever...and they will hitch a ride with a coyote and find  their way in so i don't care how many cards you issue it wont be enough for people in the rest of the world. Some people refuse to understand no means no. don't believe me how many cases do you hear of someone being deported more than once. You can bend yourself into a pretzle and still wont make everyone in the world happy till this place is a s*it hole like the one they "SAY" they want to leave behind. how is CIR to deal with repeat offenders? 


 http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/19/phoenix.drug.kidnappings/index.html

Torture a hallmark of Phoenix's drug kidnappings
Jaime Andrade had just gotten out of the shower when the men came to snatch him.

His wife, Araceli Valencia, was mopping the kitchen in their family home on a typical warm spring morning in Phoenix, Arizona, "when she suddenly felt a hard object pointed to the back of her head and a voice in Spanish tell her not to move," according to a Phoenix, Arizona, police investigative report.

"I told you not to look at me!" Valencia heard one of the kidnappers bark as he struck Andrade across the head.

Her four children bawling, Valencia was hustled into a bedroom where an armed man fondled her and threatened to rape her if she didn't tell him where Andrade hid his money, according to the report.

After beating and binding Andrade, one of the kidnappers put a gun to Valencia's head. His message: We're taking your husband and SUV. We'll be watching your house. If you call the cops, he's a dead man.

Andrade, his wife would later tell police, was a mechanic and freelance human smuggler, or coyote. Police say his 2006 kidnapping was evidence of a growing trend in Phoenix: drug and human traffickers abducting each other for ransoms or retribution. Watch why Phoenix is the hotspot »

The trend continues, as police investigated roughly a kidnapping a day in 2007 and 2008 and are on track to shatter those numbers this year. Police are stingy with details of fresh cases navigating the court system, but recently allowed CNN to review the files from Andrade's kidnapping.

For two and a half days after Andrade's abduction, the kidnappers -- including a man whom Andrade later said had been a friend -- deprived their victim of food and water. Through the door of the closet where he was held, Andrade could hear the cries of other victims being tortured in the house, the report said.

Meanwhile, Valencia had defied the kidnappers and called police, who listened to Andrade "scream and howl in pain" over the phone as the kidnappers tried to cut off his ear and a finger. The torture would continue until Valencia came up with the ransom, the kidnappers told her. Hear Andrade's wife plead with the kidnappers »

They were true to their word.

Andrade was pistol-whipped and beaten with a baseball bat and the butt of a rifle. The kidnappers tried to gouge out his eye and slashed open his left eyebrow. They burned his back as well -- presumably, police said, with a blowtorch found at the scene. Read how the next door neighbors knew nothing of this

The blindfolded Andrade "could feel his pants and underwear being cut open by an unknown person," he told police. He was told to bend over and was beaten when he refused.

"Jaime felt his legs being forced apart and heard Aldo say he was going to get his money," the report said. The kidnappers then sodomized him with a broomstick, a pair of scissors and a wooden dowel used to hang clothes in a closet.

Kidnappers creative with coercion

Ferocity is often a hallmark of the abductions taking place in this south Arizona city of 1.5 million that serves as a prime transshipment point for drugs and human cargo. Watch how the kidnappers choose their targets »

Phoenix police say they have yet to witness the level of violence -- the beheadings, the bodies shoved in drums -- that their counterparts are seeing in Mexico City or the border town of Juarez.

"It gets close sometimes," said Lt. Lauri Burgett, who heads the Home Invasion and Kidnapping Enforcement squad.

Kidnappers will smash their victims' fingers with bricks, snip their backs open with wire cutters, carve them up with knives or simply shoot them.

"We've had them electrocuted. They set them in a tub with water and use kind of barbaric means and zap the tub. I think it was a battery hooked up," Burgett said.

Two kidnappings last year resulted in murders, she added, but it's not the norm.

Phoenix police formed the HIKE squad in October after two years of unprecedented kidnapping numbers -- 357 in 2007 and 368 in 2008 -- gave the city the dubious distinction of being the nation's kidnapping capital. Home invasions were not far behind: 317 in 2007 and 337 in 2008. See kidnapping numbers since 1999 »

"It's all about the money. And there's so much money to be made in this that you can't stop it, but you can try to reveal it, and then you can try to do something about it," Burgett said.

The task force has made dozens of arrests, but as of March 31, the city had 101 reported kidnappings. If the trend continues, Phoenix will record an increase in kidnapping for a fourth straight year.

More frustrating is that the numbers represent only a third, maybe less, of the city's kidnappings, said Sgt. Tommy Thompson, a police spokesman with 16 years of drug enforcement experience. Most kidnappings aren't reported, he said, because the victims are generally smugglers, drug dealers or illegal immigrants -- or some combination of the three.

Other criminals targeted

The most common cases are criminal-on-criminal -- drug smugglers or coyotes snatching rivals or their loved ones. In some cases, a drug dealer may have lost a load or failed to make a payment, but there are also cases when kidnappers do it solely for the ransom, which can be between $30,000 and $250,000, Thompson said.

"[The victims are] wearing the doper bling-bling, and they target them," he said. "We've had several cases where the ransom amount has been $1 million that the person has asked for. In addition to that, they often ask for drugs -- 100 pounds of marijuana, perhaps a pound or two of speed, a pound or two of cocaine or several ounces of heroin."

Phoenix police have even arrested victims after rescuing them, Burgett said.

Less frequent but still accounting for 78 kidnappings last year are cases in which coyotes hold their human cargo captive or steal another coyote's patrons, known as pollos (Spanish for chickens), Burgett said.

Burgett said human trafficking is often linked to the drug trade because both industries require the same routes and subterfuge to ferry their wares into the country. See what other cities have a cartel presence

There are rarely "true victims" in Phoenix's kidnappings, the lieutenant said.

However, one criminal attorney who has represented at least 10 kidnappers in the last decade insists that the coyote business is "uglier than the drug trade" and that pollos are often killed or forced to do coyotes' bidding when they can't come up with the ransoms.

"In the drug business, the people getting killed are in the business. They are not end users, not consumers," said Antonio Bustamente. "In the coyote business, the people killed are really innocent. [First-time] illegal entry is a petty offense."

Though many might debate the innocence of victims entangled in Phoenix's border-related violence, police say there have been instances when the kidnappers snatched the wrong mark.

Girl mistakenly snatched

On the evening of March 17, 2008, a 13-year-old girl and her friend were walking out of a home in the suburb of Avondale. They were planning to play basketball. The friend, according to a police investigative report, was the niece of a man named "Chucky."

Chucky and his cohorts, witnesses told police, had earlier stolen 55 pounds of marijuana and left several men tied up in a vacant house.

Hours later, the investigative report said, armed men arrived at Chucky's sister's house in three vehicles, one a white Chevrolet Tahoe with blue-and-red strobes like the police use.

The men wanted Chucky, their drugs or $24,000. The 13-year-old said she didn't know Chucky. When she tried to walk away, "one of them grabbed her by the neck, pointed a gun at her and forced her in the vehicle," the report said.

Eventually, the men called the girl's mother to demand ransom. A police officer took the phone and informed the men they had the wrong girl. She was released relatively unharmed in the suburb of Surprise.

The case serves as a reminder that as police scramble to tamp the bloodshed before it reaches the levels proliferating south of the border, collateral damage is a reality. Watch how the kidnapping often occur in quiet neighborhoods »

The origins of the kidnappers -- 90 percent of whom hail from the Mexican state from which the notorious Sinaloa drug cartel takes its name -- also remind law enforcement that 150 miles south lies a country racked with a more extreme brand of violence.

The tortured Andrade was fortunate that police were able to find him. On Andrade's third day in captivity, an undercover officer posing as a loan shark convinced the kidnappers to lower their ransom from $50,000 to $10,000 and the title to the Ford Expedition they had stolen.

When the kidnappers arrived at the drop point, a Safeway supermarket parking lot, police swarmed on their green Chevrolet Tahoe, the report said. One of the men, Luis Alberto Castro-Vega, then 23, disclosed Andrade's whereabouts after police promised not to charge him with kidnapping.

Only Castro-Vega has been convicted of crimes associated with Andrade's kidnapping: first-degree burglary, theft by extortion, armed robbery and three counts of aggravated assault. In September 2006, a judge sentenced Castro-Vega to 54 years in prison.

His wife, Araceli Valencia, was mopping the kitchen in their family home on a typical warm spring morning in Phoenix, Arizona, "when she suddenly felt a hard object pointed to the back of her head and a voice in Spanish tell her not to move," according to a Phoenix, Arizona, police investigative report.

"I told you not to look at me!" Valencia heard one of the kidnappers bark as he struck Andrade across the head.

Her four children bawling, Valencia was hustled into a bedroom where an armed man fondled her and threatened to rape her if she didn't tell him where Andrade hid his money, according to the report.

After beating and binding Andrade, one of the kidnappers put a gun to Valencia's head. His message: We're taking your husband and SUV. We'll be watching your house. If you call the cops, he's a dead man.

Andrade, his wife would later tell police, was a mechanic and freelance human smuggler, or coyote. Police say his 2006 kidnapping was evidence of a growing trend in Phoenix: drug and human traffickers abducting each other for ransoms or retribution. Watch why Phoenix is the hotspot »

The trend continues, as police investigated roughly a kidnapping a day in 2007 and 2008 and are on track to shatter those numbers this year. Police are stingy with details of fresh cases navigating the court system, but recently allowed CNN to review the files from Andrade's kidnapping.

For two and a half days after Andrade's abduction, the kidnappers -- including a man whom Andrade later said had been a friend -- deprived their victim of food and water. Through the door of the closet where he was held, Andrade could hear the cries of other victims being tortured in the house, the report said.

This is the second in CNN.com's four-part series on drug cartels.

Monday: Authorities are taking on Mexico's drug cartels as the groups' tentacles extend into the U.S.

Wednesday: Almost 70 percent of students at an El Paso, Texas, school live in Mexico

Thursday: From moonshine to marijuana, a look at the evolving drug problem in rural America

Meanwhile, Valencia had defied the kidnappers and called police, who listened to Andrade "scream and howl in pain" over the phone as the kidnappers tried to cut off his ear and a finger. The torture would continue until Valencia came up with the ransom, the kidnappers told her. Hear Andrade's wife plead with the kidnappers »

They were true to their word.

Andrade was pistol-whipped and beaten with a baseball bat and the butt of a rifle. The kidnappers tried to gouge out his eye and slashed open his left eyebrow. They burned his back as well -- presumably, police said, with a blowtorch found at the scene. Read how the next door neighbors knew nothing of this

The blindfolded Andrade "could feel his pants and underwear being cut open by an unknown person," he told police. He was told to bend over and was beaten when he refused.

"Jaime felt his legs being forced apart and heard Aldo say he was going to get his money," the report said. The kidnappers then sodomized him with a broomstick, a pair of scissors and a wooden dowel used to hang clothes in a closet.

Kidnappers creative with coercion

Ferocity is often a hallmark of the abductions taking place in this south Arizona city of 1.5 million that serves as a prime transshipment point for drugs and human cargo. Watch how the kidnappers choose their targets »

Phoenix police say they have yet to witness the level of violence -- the beheadings, the bodies shoved in drums -- that their counterparts are seeing in Mexico City or the border town of Juarez.

"It gets close sometimes," said Lt. Lauri Burgett, who heads the Home Invasion and Kidnapping Enforcement squad.

Kidnappers will smash their victims' fingers with bricks, snip their backs open with wire cutters, carve them up with knives or simply shoot them.

"We've had them electrocuted. They set them in a tub with water and use kind of barbaric means and zap the tub. I think it was a battery hooked up," Burgett said.

Two kidnappings last year resulted in murders, she added, but it's not the norm.

Phoenix police formed the HIKE squad in October after two years of unprecedented kidnapping numbers -- 357 in 2007 and 368 in 2008 -- gave the city the dubious distinction of being the nation's kidnapping capital. Home invasions were not far behind: 317 in 2007 and 337 in 2008. See kidnapping numbers since 1999 »

"It's all about the money. And there's so much money to be made in this that you can't stop it, but you can try to reveal it, and then you can try to do something about it," Burgett said.

The task force has made dozens of arrests, but as of March 31, the city had 101 reported kidnappings. If the trend continues, Phoenix will record an increase in kidnapping for a fourth straight year.

More frustrating is that the numbers represent only a third, maybe less, of the city's kidnappings, said Sgt. Tommy Thompson, a police spokesman with 16 years of drug enforcement experience. Most kidnappings aren't reported, he said, because the victims are generally smugglers, drug dealers or illegal immigrants -- or some combination of the three.

Other criminals targeted

The most common cases are criminal-on-criminal -- drug smugglers or coyotes snatching rivals or their loved ones. In some cases, a drug dealer may have lost a load or failed to make a payment, but there are also cases when kidnappers do it solely for the ransom, which can be between $30,000 and $250,000, Thompson said.

"[The victims are] wearing the doper bling-bling, and they target them," he said. "We've had several cases where the ransom amount has been $1 million that the person has asked for. In addition to that, they often ask for drugs -- 100 pounds of marijuana, perhaps a pound or two of speed, a pound or two of cocaine or several ounces of heroin."

Phoenix police have even arrested victims after rescuing them, Burgett said.

Less frequent but still accounting for 78 kidnappings last year are cases in which coyotes hold their human cargo captive or steal another coyote's patrons, known as pollos (Spanish for chickens), Burgett said.

Burgett said human trafficking is often linked to the drug trade because both industries require the same routes and subterfuge to ferry their wares into the country. See what other cities have a cartel presence

There are rarely "true victims" in Phoenix's kidnappings, the lieutenant said.

However, one criminal attorney who has represented at least 10 kidnappers in the last decade insists that the coyote business is "uglier than the drug trade" and that pollos are often killed or forced to do coyotes' bidding when they can't come up with the ransoms.

"In the drug business, the people getting killed are in the business. They are not end users, not consumers," said Antonio Bustamente. "In the coyote business, the people killed are really innocent. [First-time] illegal entry is a petty offense."

Though many might debate the innocence of victims entangled in Phoenix's border-related violence, police say there have been instances when the kidnappers snatched the wrong mark.

Girl mistakenly snatched

On the evening of March 17, 2008, a 13-year-old girl and her friend were walking out of a home in the suburb of Avondale. They were planning to play basketball. The friend, according to a police investigative report, was the niece of a man named "Chucky."

Chucky and his cohorts, witnesses told police, had earlier stolen 55 pounds of marijuana and left several men tied up in a vacant house.

Hours later, the investigative report said, armed men arrived at Chucky's sister's house in three vehicles, one a white Chevrolet Tahoe with blue-and-red strobes like the police use.

The men wanted Chucky, their drugs or $24,000. The 13-year-old said she didn't know Chucky. When she tried to walk away, "one of them grabbed her by the neck, pointed a gun at her and forced her in the vehicle," the report said.

Eventually, the men called the girl's mother to demand ransom. A police officer took the phone and informed the men they had the wrong girl. She was released relatively unharmed in the suburb of Surprise.

The case serves as a reminder that as police scramble to tamp the bloodshed before it reaches the levels proliferating south of the border, collateral damage is a reality. Watch how the kidnapping often occur in quiet neighborhoods »

The origins of the kidnappers -- 90 percent of whom hail from the Mexican state from which the notorious Sinaloa drug cartel takes its name -- also remind law enforcement that 150 miles south lies a country racked with a more extreme brand of violence.

The tortured Andrade was fortunate that police were able to find him. On Andrade's third day in captivity, an undercover officer posing as a loan shark convinced the kidnappers to lower their ransom from $50,000 to $10,000 and the title to the Ford Expedition they had stolen.

When the kidnappers arrived at the drop point, a Safeway supermarket parking lot, police swarmed on their green Chevrolet Tahoe, the report said. One of the men, Luis Alberto Castro-Vega, then 23, disclosed Andrade's whereabouts after police promised not to charge him with kidnapping.

Only Castro-Vega has been convicted of crimes associated with Andrade's kidnapping: first-degree burglary, theft by extortion, armed robbery and three counts of aggravated assault. In September 2006, a judge sentenced Castro-Vega to 54 years in prison.

How long before these kidnapppings happen in your city? they are happening in mine. Why don' tyou care?  this is a job for the military to get these people out of the county, not the police. the The army is over doing god knows what over in god knows where. why aren't they here in phoenix?

Many were turned away at Ellis Island over the past century for disease. We wouldn't have Swine Flu if it wasn't for the illegal aliens!

Many were turned away at Ellis Island over the past century for disease. We wouldn't have Swine Flu if it wasn't for the illegal aliens!

Jose, the Swine Flu had nothing to do with our immigrants that are living in the shadows. Have you been following the news? (Fox not included)lol

Hilary, I have asked that same question numerous times in here.  If we legalize all those in our country already how will we prevent more from coming that we don't really need?  Legalization is an incentive to continue the flow.   I do not trust our government to really secure our borders and even if they made a half hearted attempt to do so,  many will manage to slip through anyway.  It will never end.   It would put a huge dent in it however without the incentive of jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship.     The pro-advocates will never answer that question because they base their views on a humanitarian one and yet wouldn't that mean that it would have to also extend to those not even here yet that have the same needs?   As I said, it will never end.

That is why I am for implementing e-verify and researching our true foreign labor needs first and going from there.   A mass amnesty through CIR will create the situation that I described above.   It was already proven in 1986.

We need to demand that Mexico and other countries where we are receiving the most illegals from take care of their own.   Of course it would help if their citizens took action also.    Too many of them  instead of staying and fighting  come here instead.   Nothing ventured, nothing gained.    It takes real courage to make change in one's own country but it can be done if the will is there and there are no escape valves in place such as what the corrupt in our country are providing.  

 I have asked that same question numerous times in here.  If we legalize all those in our country already how will we prevent more from coming that we don't really need?

Mark, We have answered you 1000 times already!! With Common Sense Immigration Reform the legal Immigration System is reformed and as jobs are needed we would fill them at a reasonable rate and not a cheap labor rate.

A cheap labor rate brings a serious flood at the border and it also gives bad employers an accesss to an exploitable workforce without documentation. 2 or even 3 times the amount of immigrants come in this way. A mass amnesty<(if this is what you want to call it) would not create an additional flood at the border.
Sometimes honestly I really think you are the one with the reading comprehension problem....or you choose to ignore the "FACTS".  Amnesty in 1986<(and that is the correct definition for 1986) had left the legal immigration system broken and this is why cheap labor came through the border in great numbers. With this underground workforce employers had the workers to expand their sleazy business practices and sweat shops where no American worker would ever consider working at. A reformed system (CIR) will not leave the nasty loo-poles that our rich crony friends enjoy.

Also, CIR helps with the issue of human trafficking. There are employers in the US that have brought workers in through the border and the have been trafficked and they work for nothing. (No pay! Mark) This is unacceptable to have in our country and Americans need to be educated on the "FACTS" that human trafficking goes further than prostitution.

So what is your answer to the solution to the undocumented that have been trafficked in Mark? Deport them swiftly. I'm curious if you have some rhetoric to pull out of your hat on that one.

Hillary, as you know there are far more immigrants waiting in their homelands to come here than we have jobs for or will ever have jobs for.   So using the humitarian approch as the pro-adocates claim their views are based on what would they do about that?

Do you see how a CIR will change that fact or fix our illegal immigration problem?    I don't!

Lets say we fill all the jobs that Americans won't do with those already here illegally in our country.   Lets say we have an additional 500,000 new jobs open each year that requires foreign labor to fill them and there are one million alone in Mexico waiting to fill those jobs.  I say that means 500,000 more Mexicans will be entering our country illegally each year then.   Do the math.  500,000 jobs but one million immigrants waiting to take them.     And that is only the country of Mexico being used as an example of immigrants waiting to come here. 

Hilary, do you have any idea why anyone would be so reading comprehension impaired that they wouldn't understand the question that I posed about "what do we do to stop illegal immigration in the future when there are more immigrants all over the planet that want to come here than we have jobs and resources for"?   Do you think that once our "new" job quotas are filled with a new CIR that it will stop the ones that couldn't make our "new" quotas each year?  They will come illegally anyway just like they do now!     What would pro-advocate CIR do to solve that problem?   That question has NEVER  been answerd in here by the so-called humanitarism pro-advocates.   Implementing e-verify would solve the problem however.   No jobs or benefits they won't come.

I see a lot less of a foolfproof solution by the pro-advocates version of CIR than mine.  

I love it when people make my own points for me as in "First of all there will never be that many jobs available...."   That is exacty what I was saying!!!!  We will never have enough jobs to accomodate all that are here illegally and all those that are still waiting in their countries to migrate here.   But if one claims to be a true humanitarian they would have to insist that we take them all in anyway, wouldn't they?  Yeah, I am really looking forward to living in a country that has totally lost its identity and has blossomed into a country of triple or more of our current population.

I love it when people make my own points for me as in "First of all there will never be that many jobs available...."   That is exacty what I was saying!!!!  We will never have enough jobs to accomodate all that are here illegally and all those that are still waiting in their countries to migrate here.  

I am talking about the same kind of an economic boom that happened during the days that Bill Clinton was President. The reason why there was a flood at the border is because the legal immigration system had too many retrictions in it and it gave employers access to an undocumented workforce allowing the expansion of business at cheap wage and unfit work conditions. Also when these kind of business people gain enough power they expand business with people that are trafficked, and they pay off whoever they can to get away with sleazy business tactics.

You are looking forward to living in a country that has lost its identity that has blossomed into a country of triple or more of our current population.

LOL..Thanks to people like you we have had 20 years of a broken immigration system. During economic booms people like you gained from a broken system and exploited a cheap labor workforce and now you are all complaining because you don't want to lose that cheap labor. It is too late Mark because CIR is going to pass...Wage is going to go up...Unions will form and yes the economy will have significant recovery but with a reformed system and as you can see Obama is securing the Border a higher wage with labor laws will be inforced you can rest assure that small sweatshops are not going to stay in business anymore nor will they be trafficking slaves through the border like before.

Identity Mark, My dad and I are looking for the America that had the identity my dad fought for to protect in World War ll.
We are looking for the country that his grandfather came too that brought us to the country that our founding fathers came to on the Mayflower to seek religious freedom and a pursuit of happiness that would be the foundation for all of those who dreamed. This is the America that we all share.

Hilary, the question never gets answered either about how the pro-advocates version of CIR  will stop illegal immigration.  As I pointed out there are far more immigrants that want to migrate here than we have jobs and resources for.   If we legalize all that are here already, we don't even have enough jobs for them much less the ones still waiting to migrate.  If one is going to argue from a humanitarian point of view it would seem logical that they would want EVERYONE who is in need to come here.  You know many millions more that would increase our population?   Where are all these jobs going to come from?

Notice how the pro-advocates keep going on the personal attack and making false accusations of us even though we have denied those accusations over and over?   It is really childish and immature and I have no further need to discuss anything with people like that.

Hilary, the question never gets answered either about how the pro-advocates version of CIR  will stop illegal immigration.

Talking to yourself again? Get yourself a real profile with real information about yourself on change.org.  To answer your question? Americans do not care about making jobs for more people to migrate here at the moment. 61% of Americans care about fixing the problem that exists here and passing CIR it is the common sense solution. They know the reality is that 12 million or more are not going to leave nor are they going to be deported or self-deport because they many have been here for more than 20 years. Americans realize that way to long of time that has passed with a broken immigration system. They are also savvy with the fact that such harsh restrictions were placed on the legal Immigration system and they realize that most people if given the option to feed there family were to cross the border then they would and Americans are forgiving when it comes to this because they see the link here with family values and feel compassion. They also see that these people were hard working and that they really wanted to come here.

The humanitarian point is not an argument; it happens to be a reality that we are faced with a crisis here in America. *Many millions more will not be able to come in until jobs are available but the reality is that they will not have a desire to come either because a job is the magnet that brings them here.*<(Answer to your question)!

With a retrictive enforcement on employers in conjunction with Unions when the system is reformed will make law abiding corporations report sleazy operators of business. This also saves lots of innocent people from being trafficked through are border for no-pay and slave abuse. Slave labor is unacceptable and Americans will not tolerate it because we are compassionate on humanitarian issues as a whole society when the corruption is exposed. Americans like to deal with what is on their plate right here in the US. We would love to save the world but we need to fix what is broken first here...and if we look at what is on our plate at the moment we see a long list of what is needed to fix.

If this does not answer you question then you have a problem. It is you that act childish making personal attacks on me it is when someone attacks you back that you pull the SPIN on that accusation and try to accuse the person you initially insulted.

Hilary, the question never gets answered either about how the pro-advocates version of CIR  will stop illegal immigration.

Talking to yourself again? Get yourself a real profile with real information about yourself on change.org.  To answer your question? Americans do not care about making jobs for more people to migrate here at the moment. 61% of Americans care about fixing the problem that exists here and passing CIR it is the common sense solution. They know the reality is that 12 million or more are not going to leave nor are they going to be deported or self-deport because they many have been here for more than 20 years. Americans realize that way to long of time that has passed with a broken immigration system. They are also savvy with the fact that such harsh restrictions were placed on the legal Immigration system and they realize that most people if given the option to feed there family were to cross the border then they would and Americans are forgiving when it comes to this because they see the link here with family values and feel compassion. They also see that these people were hard working and that they really wanted to come here.

The humanitarian point is not an argument; it happens to be a reality that we are faced with a crisis here in America. *Many millions more will not be able to come in until jobs are available but the reality is that they will not have a desire to come either because a job is the magnet that brings them here.*<(Answer to your question)!

With a retrictive enforcement on employers in conjunction with Unions when the system is reformed will make law abiding corporations report sleazy operators of business. This also saves lots of innocent people from being trafficked through are border for no-pay and slave abuse. Slave labor is unacceptable and Americans will not tolerate it because we are compassionate on humanitarian issues as a whole society when the corruption is exposed. Americans like to deal with what is on their plate right here in the US. We would love to save the world but we need to fix what is broken first here...and if we look at what is on our plate at the moment we see a long list of what is needed to fix.

If this does not answer you question then you have a problem. It is you that act childish making personal attacks on me it is when someone attacks you back that you pull the SPIN on that accusation and try to accuse the person you initially insulted.

Hilary, oh now we have the lies from the pro-advocate.     Did you see any posts of mine where I insulted anyone?  Nope, Nada!  But I have been insulted since day one for my immigration views from certain uncivil members in here.  Thank God there are SOME grownups in here that do know how to debate civilly.   When someone states their views in here and their motives,  I believe them.   I don't accuse them of saying things or implying things that they never did or said as is what is being done to me in here.   That is what is childish and immature.   Someone must be desperate for attentiont that they feel the need to keep addressing me when I clearly said I don't want any further discussion with them. 

We  don't owe anyone a profile or a picture  I could post a picture of Donald Duck and say that I am the King of England.   What would that prove?   People who post their picture and give out personal information about themselves on the internet are not very bright.   What has that to do with discussing issues anyway?   Some people are just plain nosey and are control freaks so they make stupid demands of others when it isn't even required nor are they the blog owner to make such demands. 

We  don't owe anyone a profile or a picture  I could post a picture of Donald Duck and say that I am the King of England.   What would that prove?   People who post their picture and give out personal information about themselves on the internet are not very bright.

Change.org is colition of people and that sign and direct petitions to elected officials. A pro-immigration blog is not the place that you obsessively harrass and post oppositions. If you want to obsessively do that then you belong posting on the blogs of groups that oppose the issue. You are night posting in the right place.

There are people posting here that have graduated from Harvard with real information posted about them here so the dig about personal information and being bright is really silly. They do not hide in a shoebox as an advocate for their cause because they know that your side thrives of fear tactics and people that live in the shadows.

 Some people are just plain nosey and are control freaks so they make stupid demands of others when it isn't even required nor are they the blog owner to make such demands. 

It takes one to recognize one! hehe:)

Everyone please do forgive my spelling. I have not much time to edit posts. Unlike Mark, I work 2 jobs for a living and have meetings to go to as well.

It looks like Mark spend all his days posting against CIR even though he is well aware that 61% of Americans want reform on this issue. My guess is Mark is paid to do this.

Well Mark, as much as you don't want to hear it I am off to my meeting on the ongoing campaign about  Detainees and the discussion on Obama's shift on Immigration policy.

Later:)

Hilary, notice who the one is that keeps addressing me and not the other way around?    Who is the one being harrassed here?   I already said I don't want to discuss things with people who make false accusations of me even though I have denied them.   As I said, someone must be lonely as they keep  begging for attention.   They also have no valid arguments so they keep begging to be given credibility.  If I disagreed with someone so vehemently, I would ignore them rather than to keep addressing them.  At least that is what normal people do.   Since when do blog members get to boss other members around when it isn't even their blog?   Dave owns this blog, not the one crying for attention.  I am not the one bossing anyone around just asking to be left alone but notice how the pro-advocate tries to spin my truth about her into me doing it?  Not only dishonest but demented.

Oh and by the way,  I guess you are nobody as I am supposedly talking to myself even though I am addressing you, Hilary.

Yes, I am  retired as I have stated previously, Hilary. But that doesn't stop the hateful one from insuating  that I am lazy or some other vile remark just because she can't stand my views.   Sick tactic!  Must be very lonely and starved for attention  to feel the need to continue to attack someone who wishes no further dialog with her or a severe psychological disorder.

A pro-immigration blog  ...and I am pro-immigration, but I am very concerned about the way the gov't is implementing immigration policy.  Does that make me anti-immigrant?  Because I think I should eat less, does that make me anti-food?  Does wanting less immigration, but better treatment for the ones we accept, make me anti-immigrant?  To support changes in our citizenship procedures to put them more in line with the modern liberal democracies, doesn't make me anti-immigrant.  Neither does wanting to end to the discrimination mandated by the Cuban Adjustment make me anti-immigrant.

I don't think this is a pro-immigration blog, so much as an open borders blog.  But it's not open borders for ll countries - only the US.

And despite rumors to the contrary, this is a real picture of me - both of mes.

A pro-immigration blog  ...and I am pro-immigration, but I am very concerned about the way the gov't is implementing immigration policy.  Does that make me anti-immigrant?  Because I think I should eat less, does that make me anti-food?  Does wanting less immigration, but better treatment for the ones we accept, make me anti-immigrant?  To support changes in our citizenship procedures to put them more in line with the modern liberal democracies, doesn't make me anti-immigrant.  Neither does wanting to end to the discrimination mandated by the Cuban Adjustment Act make me anti-immigrant.

I don't think this is a pro-immigration blog, so much as an open borders blog.  But it's not open borders for ll countries - only the US.

And despite rumors to the contrary, this is a real picture of me - both of mes.

Dave, how can anyone be anti-immigrant when they embrace legal immigration?   How can they be anti-immigrant just because they don't think those that didn't come the right way should not be granted legalization before those who are still waiting to come here?

For anyone who would like to know the truth about Guest Worker Programs.    This is directly from the U.S. Department of Labor website.   Note that Guest Workers have to be paid the prevailing wage that any American would get for doing the same job.   So there is no exploitation of employers for cheaper labor.

Foreign labor certification programs permit U.S. employers to hire foreign workers on a temporary or permanent basis to fill jobs essential to the U.S. economy. Certification may be obtained in cases where it can be demonstrated that there are insufficient qualified U.S. workers available and willing to perform the work at wages that meet or exceed the prevailing wage paid for that occupation in the area of intended employment.

Also under the CIR that I am in support of Visa Overstayers would be tracked unlike the past where they were not.   So that would eliminate that problem.

Well as I see it Mark and if you go check it out at Real Clear Politics you well see the political reality on the issue.

The Republicans do not want to sign CIR without the Guest Worker programs and the Unions supporters oppose the guest worker programs.

Alan Greespan reported that immigrants help our economy with economic growth even in bad times. I'm not sure what my opinion on this is yet.

The Article at Real Clear says that the battle in the Senate is between Republicans and Democrats on these issues.

Insiders seem to believe if they do not come to an agreement and CIR is held up because Republicans will not vote to pass it then it will be the wedge issue for the Democrats when the senate goes up next year to get out the vote. This will bring Hispanics out in large numbers. My guess is Unions will mobilize the base with a national movement on immigration. Just a notion??

They claim that 2011 is the most likely year it will pass. 

Dave, here is my position on those things you mentioned.   I do not support paperwork nightmares and long waits for immigrants who are waiting to come here.   Not sure what you mean about families being torn apart for shoplifting.   I know that anyone including citizens and non-citizens are subject to whatever fines and jailtime are applicable for that crime or any other crime.    If someone commits a crime where jailtime is part of the penalty, naturally they are going to be separated from their family whether they be citizen or non-citizen.  You have a problem with that?   Being jailed for immigration violations is another story and if you don't like that then seek change.   Every American has the right to petition our lawmakers to make changes but we are obligated to follow our laws until or if they are changed.

The quotas for legal immigration in place right now is that Asians have the highest ones and Latin Americans have the second highest quotas.   The quotas for white people to migrate here are at the bottom of the barrel.   How is that discriminating against Latinos and favoring white people as in back in 1964?  

I do not cheer on ICE to go after asylum seekers or children either. 

Dave, I am guessing that there are stricter penalties for immigrants who break our laws because they are sort of on a probationary period so to speak.  I am sort of on the fence on this one as I can see validity from both sides. 

As for Ramirez's death, all  know is that the prosecution couldn't prove what actually killed him or who actually killed him.   He could have died when his head hit the cement when he fell to the ground or the kick to the head.   I thought it odd that what caused his death for sure was not brought out by the medical examiners.     Of course, I think it is awful to kick someone in the head when they are down and obviously hurt or dying.    I am not taking sides on this one either.    I wasn't at the trial or heard the evidence.    It was a terrible thing to have happened.  No one should have to lose their life at such a young age in such a violent manner.   Justice may not have been served but I don't understand why the prosection couldn't have made a better case.  I know some feel the case was rigged in favor of the hometown boys involved.   Of course that is always possible.

I think it only fair that we give immigrants from many walks of life a shot at the American Dream within quotas/numbers that we can absorb easily.   I guess Asians are favored in this day and age because most are pretty well educated.   Of course we probably need some unskilled labor to do manual jobs also.   The question is though....how much?

As for immigrants wearing monitoring devices rather than being incarcerated for immigration violations,  I have read that many times they remove these devices to escape detection.   Maybe my sources aren't accurate,  I don't know as I can't recall where I read it but will try to look it up.   One other thing comes to mind and that is if they are working in this country illegally,  I cannot justify them being fitted with a monitoring device and then allowed to return to work.   Yet how do they support themselves if sent back out into our society until they have an immigration hearing?   I guess I would rather our immigration judges hear their cases quickly and making decisions on whether they are deportable or not rather than incarcerating them at the taxpayer's expense for long periods of time and also keeping the immigrants life on hold for a long time.  It isn't fair to either.

I guess I forgot to answer one of your questions, Dave.   As for the kids being incarcerated with their parents,  I guess it is so that the family can be kept together.   I doubt that these kids would be happier being placed in some foster home with strangers.   I think my solution that immigration judges should hear their cases in a timely manner rather than locking the immigrants and their underaged children up
for long periouds of time would alleviate this situation.   Regardless though, these detention centers should have to meet humane and safety standards.   I understand that it hasn't always been the case but from what I understand there have been corrections made to improve on that.