It is blackmail Gary plain and simple.   One where we would be getting the raw end of the stick, not Mexico.

Mark we're going  back  where we were 3 weeks ago in these arguments.  These 12 million- mostly Mexicans are not going home voluntarily, and there's the Democratic party looking out for them besides, so you can't wave a magic wand and make them vanish.  Why not "extort" something from Mexico before they're granted amnesty here unilaterally and we get no concessions from that rotten government? (Calderon excluded)

Mark the writing is on the wall, I said it before.  I couldn't  lead a horse to water- never mind make him drink.  I really do appreciate though that you take the time to respond.

Gary, we don't have to wave a magic wand to make them go home.   What we need to do is get serious about border and internal enforcment of our immigration laws.   We need to make e-verify mandated in the workplace.  We need to discontinue any enticements for them to stay or to continue to come here illegally.

What is in it for us with your proposed boycott?    What we will get is to be forced to keep 20 million plus of Mexico's citizens and others that are already here  illegally (which is only good for Mexico).  If offered citizenship they will be able to sponsor family members and extended family members to come here.   Do you ever give any thought as to the population growth that will result from this?   Do you ever give any thought as to how this will affect the demographics of this country?   This isn't the early 20th century anymore where we had an abundance of natural resources, jobs, etc.  Our unemployment rates are high, our natural resources are being depleted, we have overcrowded conditions in our schools, jails and hospitals.   We have 416 patients to every doctor about twice as many as most industrialized countries.   It is going to get worse also with the baby boomer generation coming of age and requiring more medical care.    Think, Gary!

We have already sent a signal back in 1986 with that amnesty that we we will forgive anyone who sneaks through our borders as long as they wait out another amnesty rather than laying the law down once and for all and saying no more which is what we were promised back then.   We have already sent a signal to terrorists that we lack the backbone to secure our country's borders.   We have to be the laughing stock of the world to have allowed this to happen no matter what these so-called "immigrants" intents or needs are.   We cannot help the entire world's poor by importing them all into our country.  It would be national suicide.   What part of that don't you get?

You are being deported for being here illegally.   That makes you and whoever brought you here criminals. This is the same as breaking into somebody's house--you weren't invited here.   We have about 12 million people like you who all feel like they should be given amnesty.  Each one thinks he deserves a special dispensation--and, incidentally, that's about how many US citizens are now out of work.   Coincidence?

We have another half billion like you who want to be here--illegally or otherwise, they don't care how--waiting on the doorstep for any chance to break in when opportunity presents itself—by sneaking across the borders or overstaying their visas, bringing disease and poverty and crime with them.   By their actions they show that they care not for this country or its people, just themselves.  Many don't bother to learn the language, culture or history of this country.   They cost us billions in health care, law enforcement, education and such.   They are the leading cause of overpopulation, and in some states, like California, are overwhelming the infrastructure beyond all imagination and every effort to fix the problem—bankrupting the state.   Deportation is all we have left to protect ourselves.   But illegal immigrants refuse to leave and then call us filthy names for trying to protect ourselves, our jobs and our culture, our children's birthright.

You got your college education here where my son, a citizen, could not afford one.   You have lived here for eight years.  In that time, what have you done for this country to pay us back?   What of the discounted tuition given only to illegal immigrants while our own children must pay full price?   What kind of idiocy is that?!   We won't even get into health care and such that illegal immigrants force out of our system, while our own citizens go without.  

What is it you don't understand about all this sir?   I suggest that you stop whining and go back to Peru and then apply for U.S. citizenship.  If you really care that much you'll wait.   But, frankly, I hope they refuse anybody who already has a criminal record here.     

Incidentally, I'm not a radical Republican, or a Neo-Nazi or anything of the sort--just a bleeding-heart liberal who understands that we're in a lifeboat about to be capsized by overcrowding, that we owe something to ourselves that is being ripped from us every day and which isn't going to get any better until we take care of our own for a change.  Sure, we'd like to save the world, but we, first, have to save our country.   Can you think past your own selfish interests to understand that you've already gotten more than you deserve from us?  Maybe you should take your precious college education and go back to Peru and make IT a better place so others like you will want to stay there.  

Oh my god, you might be more of a mystery to unravel then me?  What’s with the picture?  I’m sorry folks, I might have been out of line commenting on ana’s pulchritude when she swapped out photos, but if I don’t ask Carla nobody else will?   It’s the elephant in the room and I can’t stay on topic now, even though I’ve been warned and…..whatever.

Carla, that was some nice Ani Defranco on your web site.  Try  live streaming 88.5 FM WXPN  out of Philadelphia.  It’s a NPR station that plays rock and progressive music.  Do it in the morning when Makila Mejoun or Helen Leight are hosting.  I just did, thanks for reminding me. 

NPR news just came on and I hear California is on fire again.  That means it must be the two year anniversary since I was in Mexico for the first of several trips, and I watched same thing happening in California.  The next time I was there, the news out of the U.S. was all about paralyzing blizzards.  Each time I wondered why they couldn’t do more with their beautiful country where it’s warm 12 months a year and seemed to have plenty of precipitation, among other things?  Anyway Carla welcome to the discussion, they’re so bloody conventional here, do I dare say conservative, and they don’t realize you can still make your points even if you are a little “free form.” 

p.s.  You might be a little harsh in your assessment of Alonso and I post too many you tube musical videos.

Carla, 

You stated the child's "birthright", but you fail to realize that this country is based on the very idea that you attacking the young gentleman for. This country was started by immigrants, and over the years of existence, has been populated by immigrants and that proof can be see by turning on the television or walking down the street. 

No one is stating that our borders should be opened or that coming here illegally is a crime. But in this situation, you have to realize the circumstance of Alonso's case. How would you suggest a fourteen year old that was brought here illegal demand to his parents or guardians at the time that he will not enter this country illegal. He is the result of someone else's poor actions, so you are suggesting that he should pay for them when he has a clean record and has graduated college and wants nothing more than be provided with an opportunity to become a citizen? 

There might be some bitterness towards this case because your child was unable to attend college, but that is another issue that has to do with the education system implemented in this country. 

To make the generalization that immigrants "bring disease and poverty and crime with them" is ridiculous. The same generalization can be said about the first inhabitants of this country. With an issue like immigration, you cannot make such generalization claims and state unofficially, "I hereby declare that every illegal immigrant must be deported to whatever filth they come from!" 

I suggest you pick up the book "Underground America: Narratives of Undocumented Lives" published by Mcsweeney's Books" and educate yourself about the reality of such a sensitive issue and not allow yourself to be written by such generalizing ideas that are implemented by all the high-ranking media elites. 

Here is a link to purchase the book, and you are in luck. The book is on sale for ten dollars.

http://store.mcsweeneys.net/index.cfm/fuseaction/catalog.detail/object_id/5e337492-1673-48ce-bedc-9352c9d39d84/UndergroundAmericabrNarrativesofUndocumentedLives.cfm

** coming here illegal is NOT a crime. A correction. 

Coming here illegally is a violation of our immigration laws.  Let's not play down that action.

This country may have started with immigrants but we have been a country for 233 years now.   We have been a nation of Americans by several generations.   Sure we still take in legal immigrants but that doesn't make us a nation of immigrants anymore since out citizen population way outnumbers our immigrant population.   Most of us were born here so we are not immigrants.

At any rate stating that "we are a nation of immigrants" does not nullify our immigration laws today.

Manuel, either you're myopic or you don't care.   Times have changed, as "nameless" has carefully pointed out.   We did what we could when we could, till it hurt.   That's over.   This lifeboat is overcrowded and about to go down with all hands on board.  Arguing about it with those still treading water is insane, pointless and very painful, etc.

Alonso should grow up and stop complaining.   You see, he is entitled to nothing from the U.S.A.  Perhaps he should try being a bit grateful for what he's already ripped illegally from us and go home better off for the experience--thankful that we didn't hang him.   (Yes, I'm serious.)  His beef (if he is really such an ingrate as all that) is with his parents, not us.  We've done nothing but be used by them, and millions more, for billion$ we can't afford. 

I'm not angry about the college thing because my son made it and is a well-respected goldsmith and glass artist.   It's the others that I am angry for.  This is not about just me or mine, it's about the whole country.    

Realize the circumstances of Alonso's case?  You're kidding, right?  We're in an unprecedented crisis in this country and he and the other 12 million illegals don't care one iota for us as they have amply demonstrated by breaking in and ignoring our laws and overwhelming our facilities, demanding rights that citizens can't even get, whining and spitting venom, and then despising us for objecting, hurling insults when we try to save something for ourselves and our own children.   No sir, we don't have to consider Alonso's case at all.   He and millions more, for once, should consider ours--though, as you've so amply demonstrated, they won't. 

Read that book?  No, because the premise is one sided--ILLEGAL aliens do not suffer more than LEGAL aliens, whom you don't seem to care about at all.  It's like the way right-wing radicals kill doctors to ensure the birth of all fetuses--but abandon them when they become actual abused children.  (For the record, my husband has dual citizenship and our best friend is from another country.   I have a great many immigrant friends and they're all LEGAL.)  

Stop throwing up our past as justification for criminal behavior now.   And don't accuse us of ignorance for taking a stand.   You won't make any friends that way.  It just pisses us off even more.   We are not ignorant, sir, as you suggest, and these types of self-serving accusations in the face of our present crisis are only making us very angry, which doesn't help your case one bit. 

* coming here illegal is NOT a crime. A correction.

This is oxymoronic.  Illegal is a crime.  Entering the US without inspection and without proper visa, is a crime.  

This country was started by immigrants All the Founding Fathers, (with the possible exception of Hamilton who was born in St.Croix of an American mother), were native-born Americans, not immigrants.

What difference does it make?  It is against our immigration laws to enter our country illegally and that is all that matters and one is subject to deportation for doing so.

If deported and caught again it is a felony and many of them have done that.  A felony is a serious crime.    Working under false I.D. and SS#'s is a crime and many have done that.

ana, you had a change of heart. that's good. there's kurt and carla to deal with and I need you. it's going to be like starting all over again if I challenge either of them, not sure I'm up to the task.  where am I or you with reigns and mark after 3 weeks?

Gary, I already told you several times that e-verify will make many self-deport without jobs.  We also need to take away any other incentives to stay here or to come here.   Birthright citizenship is another biggie that attracts them here to give birth on our soil.   I hope I don't have to repeat myself again.  

sorry mark, my computer has been freezing up on me tonight.  with that said, i'll repeat what i've said at least a half a dozen times- e-verify is pipe dream, maybe if the Fuhrer was President it might work.  and you don't obviously think that total chaos south of the border matters.  Boy that country is going to be ripe for influence by people like Hugo Chavez (or worse) if we throw the whole lock stock and barrel of them right back in Mexicos face.  I like nuance.

My statement was that no one is saying that coming here illegally is not a crime, we all understand fully that it is. What we are trying to point out is the treatment of these illegals. With one person saying that this fellow is lucky we didn't hang him, that sounds very similar to the Jews. I know it's a rough comparison, but there is a difference to take a stand against something, and then to directly put in harm's way those people most associated with that issue. 

Generalization doesn't do anybody any good. It's as if there were murders going around the nation and the authorities said the killers had brown hair and blue eyes. Then someone will say that everyone with brown hair and blue eyes is a criminal, so we are better off giving all of them the death penalty just to be safe. The way some of the people talk here makes me question their humanity, their compassion for another human being and shows that this issue is rooted in this generalizing idea that what we have in this country is being taken away. It should be taken on a case by case basis and always treated with respect, not tossing them to the dogs and saying we should hang them all. 

The the treatment of these illegals should be quite simply arrest and deporation according to the law.  I think the people who should be hanged and thrown to the dogs are our own members of  Congress and government officials who are shirking on their sworn sacred oaths of office to protect and defend the Constitution.  And yes, recently one was caught - one Isaac R. Baichu, 46, an adjudicator for the United States Citizenshipand Immigration Services, was arrested for coercing oral sex from an applicant.

Illegal immigrants are like rats, racoons, or any pest.  It is your responsibility to set a barrier to keep them out of you stuff.  They'll always be there trying. 

analisa dp, you ignored 99% of my statement and CHOOSE to take offence when I pointed out that Alonzo should be grateful we didn't hang him for living here illegally.  That wasn’t a threat and you know it.   If you put it in context there is no mistaking the point--that he's lucky because in some places they would execute you for far more ambiguous crimes, which WAS my point.    Like Kurt, I believe that hanging should be reserved for those in office who are caught selling out their country.   

Fact:  however Alonso arrived, he has now achieved the age of legal adulthood and gained a college education here, among other things—so, he remains illegal by choice.   Nitpicking your way through immigration law and downplaying civil law (that protects personal rights, as in the Constitution!) to boost your case is, at best, tedious, but the way you chose to do it was libellous.  (We’ll get back to that later.)

An illegal can not live here for years without violating our laws, repeatedly.   Worse, most of their infractions can land innocents--duped or sympathetic citizens--in jail and that's not funny or nice, or LEGAL.   So please stop your misrepresentations, hateful name-calling, and generally inflamed rhetoric because it distracts, it’s grossly unfair, and as I so carefully pointed out earlier, it debases your position.    

According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) the following are the most common violations of United States immigration laws:  (Convince me that Alonso or any illegal can live here for years and not KNOWINGLY violate many of these laws or cause others to do so in his interests.)  

*Filing false statements on applications or petitions.

*Making a false claim that you are a United States citizen.

*Making, altering or using counterfeit immigration documents.

*Making, altering or using counterfeit documents to support immigration applications or petitions.

*Failing to report the arrival of illegal aliens.Assisting or encouraging aliens to come to the United States in violation of the law.

*Harboring an illegal alien.

*Knowingly employing aliens who do not have permission to work in the United States.

*Recruiting or referring for a fee aliens who do not have permission to work in the United States.

*Failing to complete and maintain immigration Form I-9 for all new employees, whether citizens or aliens.

*Failing to depart the United States when ordered removed (deported).

*Entering or attempting to enter the United States at a time or place which is not authorized.

*Attempting to enter the United States by misrepresenting (lying about) material facts.

*Entering into a marriage to circumvent the immigration laws.

*Entering or attempting to enter the United States without permission after having been removed (deported).

*Assisting an alien to enter the United States for prostitution or other immoral purposes.

*Receiving benefits including Medicare, Medicaid, welfare and unemployment insurance, at both national and state levels.

*Wilfully and intentionally violating the known legal duty of voluntarily filing income tax returns and/or paying the correct amount of income, employment, or excise taxes.

*Ignoring the duty for male illegal aliens residing in the United States who are 18 through 25 years of age to register for Selective Service.

Further, here are a few example of how illegals directly imperil the rest of us.   Our laws forbid virtually every contact with illegals, with stiff penalties for:  anybody who assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.   For EACH violation a citizen can go to jail for up to five years, be heavily fined, and have property seized.  

Those are just some of the direct ways illegals break laws and damage our country.  The indirect burden on the infrastructure, customs, language, etc., is far more damaging—something those laws would have protected us from if inforced.     Clearly it is against a great many laws just to BE illegal in this country since it virtually requires a lifestyle of criminal infractions and triggers a criminal subculture of slimy people who prey on desperate illegals.   (A whole other discussion!).   

Finally, analisa dp, you are obviously very young and clearly quite emotional, so JUST THIS ONE TIME I’ll forgive your (possible) ignorance of the law--that you have committed blatant libel here by asserting that  I am an “out-and-out sociopath”--a nasty, unwarranted thing to say, and you better clean up your mouth because somebody else might sue your ass for that one, little lady!    No, this is not a threat either, just a friendly warning that you’ve overstepped the law here.   Incidentally, when you resort to name calling it advertises a weak defense.  

This is high comedy.  You march on to a pro-migrant site with combat boots on and yelling at Alonso that he's a "criminal," a freeloader on this system...yada, yada. And then you accuse me of namecalling and inflammatory language.  If I'm not mistaken, it's a civil offense, not a criminal offense.  And even if Liquid is right, it's an administrative violation, not criminal.  Yet, you've tried and convicted this young man without even knowing him or the facts of his life or case.   Tell me, what CRIMINAL act was he CONVICTED of in a court of law?  It seems to me that you are the one who is engaging in libelous namecalling, without any proof whatever.

Let me tell you a story. When Liquid showed up on this blog in his second incarnation, I did my best to convince Dave to ban him from the site.  In fact, I spent some time trying to come up with the most compelling arguments I could think of to banish him. But then Dave asked me a thoughtful question that caused me to re-evaluate my position and ultimately to change my stance.  He said, "…it's an interesting question for those of us who believe in softening the lines that people erect between themselves and outsiders out of fear: Who merits exclusion from a community the organizing principle of which is inclusion?" And he said, “there is value to repeated interactions even with people you dislike or disagree with--you can sometimes find common ground where you thought it was impossible.”  So, that's the reason I'm talking to Liquid and to you. Not that I think we’ll find common ground, but I couldn't refute what Dave was saying because it goes to the heart of what I believe in. 

We may feel afraid or threatened by certain people, so we decide to clamp down on them.  We may go so far as to exile them from our community. But this is not what is best in us, nor is it consistent with our values: Fairness, Neighborliness, Tolerance, Freedom, Democracy, Respect, etc.  What is best about America? We live in a country with a diversity of peoples and opinions, yet we are one of the few countries that has successfully managed to get along, despite our differences (for the most part, that is). At our best, we strive to be fair and impartial, not biased.  For instance, we don't just assume someone is guilty before they've even been tried and convicted of a crime.  At our noblest, we practice tolerance, inclusion, justice and love. So, you can thank Dave for his spirit of tolerance and inclusion. That probably why you haven’t been deleted.  I just wish we could get some of this generous spirit from you as well.  

I am sorry if I offended you.  However, you are on a pro-migrant blog, so please show respect for all the people in this community. And that includes Alonzo.

We are ALL pro-"immigrant"!   It isn't "immigrants" that we are discussing.   So it is wrong to be intolerant of law breakers?   I suspected that Dave was being coericed into banning some of us in here.   Glad HE is more tolerant and there is no reason not to be when it is merely an opposing view involved as long as it is presented without silly name calling.   I thought someone was leaving here permanently?   You mean I celebrated for nothing?

Carla, I am still waiting for these diversity lovers to tell me how giving amnesty to mostly Latinos equates to diversity.   What about all the other immigrants from other countries and ethnic groups that would love a piece of the American Dream also?  I mean if one is a true humanitarian they would want to be fair to all ethnic groups wouldn't they?   There are plenty of non-latino poor immigrants waiting.  Guess I will never get an answer to that one for the obvious reason.

If you need to shout or resort to name calling it means you lost the argument through logic and reasoning.  It indicates you've thrown in the towel. 

I have never commented on one single case in here.  I have repeated this over and over. 

Oh, I figured you'd twist what I said into being anti-latino.  Then according to your reasoning you dislike any immigrants who AREN'T Latino.  Two can play the same game you know.

How did me saying that immigration should be fair to ALL immigrants instead of just one ethnic group turn into me being anti-latino?   I would allot them the exact same quota as I would any other immigrant.  So how does that makes me anti-latino?   Equality and fairness for all is diisliking one group?   Please explain that screwed up thinking if you can.

The fact remains that another amnesty would overwhelmingly  benefit most Latinos.   You can throw in your token other immigrants  all you want but that doesn't change the unfairness and the truth in the above. 

I object to all illegal immigration no matter who they are or where they are from.   Amnesty wouldn't be fair for any of them but Latinos would  benefit from it the most so that makes amnesty even more unfair.   As for legal immigrants EQUALITY for all ethnic groups

analisa dp, you say, "Mark, try to focus."  Are you aiming to destroy with sarcasm again?    Then you accused him of "a vigilante attitude" and of lacking values of "fairness and justice...basic civility” because he doesn't agree with you?!   Shame on you.     

You call this a pro-immigrant site.  Really!  IF that is so, it is because it is the on-line tool of predominantly one person with a financial stake in immigration--Dave Bennion is responsible for the vast majority of subject posts here; it's easy to check; go ahead.   When I came to these pages by accident a while ago, I became alarmed at the spin he was putting on his articles, some with what I considered misleading titles, like saying that most US citizens are for amnesty when, in fact, most people I know hold that they are against all illegal immigrants.   Who am I to have an opinion?   I live in a university town with a huge international base.  Our public library sports a Chinese wing.   Our friends are multinational and multilingual and about half have graduate degrees or "a gift".   My husband has dual citizenship and our best friend is from Brazil.   I've lived all over the place, but mostly in high-immigration states like Florida and California.   Since I am old, experienced, and a professional writer, I have lingered here to fight for truth over bias as I see it.  

Unfortunately for everybody, the facts are still facts:  it's Lorenzo X 12 million, and that number is breaking our backs and growing exponentially.   We (the USA) can not support this.   What about this is so hard to fathom?   Why do you prefer to gut us with your tongue rather than try to understand that we are already in horrible pain over our shattered country?   

"Accusing" you of name calling is like calling the Atlantic wet, since it is already a foregone conclusion.  

Mark and Kurt, we fundamentally agree.   We particularly agree on the strange lady named "analisa dp", her twistings and illusions and wild imaginings.   She has a private profile, which means either that she is not very brave after all, hiding her activities here, or, possibly she is a cover for something or someone.    [If she hadn't libelled me, I'd consider that it might be an alias for Dave, but he's a lawyer and reflexively too cautious for that, I'm sure.]    

At any rate, I've got a life and this is getting stupid, so I'm out of here.   All be well and happy.  Tchau.

Carla;

I wanted to add that Dave BenOnion is in the pay of George Soros. Not a grass roots type of guy, and not a guy with any patriotism towards the US, since he is a foreign national. (i.e. Serbian).

Now to Carla’s points above.

“Convince me that Alonso or any illegal can live here for years and not KNOWINGLY violate many of these laws or cause others to do so in his interests.)   *Harboring an illegal alien." yada, yada, yada and then this at the end

"or knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.”  

Now I get it Carla, I really do.  however, you really haven’t seen the dark side but i understand, you feel the way millions of others do.

But come on?  Think about this.  Beto put me in a difficult position, I harbored him for 5 years, shame on you Beto!  The police in Philadelphia, what about them, they could bust the false drivers license and insurance mills if the really wanted, does that mean they knowingly assist……I’ve seen these places, the police drive up and down the street- they must know what goes on in there, maybe they don’t, maybe they do. There’s enough of the “fast and furious” knock offs racing around raising eyebrows for them to figure that one out. 

The whole thing is so unsavory we put Beto in one of our cars so he could drive to work where he was EMPLYOYED ON THE BOOKS and overpaying, and due substantial refunds, which he never asked for back.... by the way.  Is Uncle Sam knowingly violating the law?  

What about when illegals are stopped and present these false documents .....anywhere in the country.  How hard to trace that back to origin.  And what a cash machine for the ones writing this worthless business.

How about my local police?  One time I was visiting my father in Florida.  I might have told this story before, who knows- I’ll tell it again.  He was driving in our car and was pulled over, as in “profiled”   Trust me he was!  He used to put his blinkers on to exit our driveway and we’re on basically a dead end street; so he was doing the speed limit that day.  He didn’t have a driver’s license.   He gave the police my cell number and they called me….NO TOWING, NO TICKETS, NO IMPOUNDING…..NOTHING.  I located my wife, and she and my friend up the street, went to pick up the car and  BETO.  Excuse me if I get choked up a little.   There I’m better.  Were my local police knowingly assisting?   This happens 100’s of times each day I bet all over the country.  In other locals, it's just the opposite, they impound the car.   Don't get me started.......boy they raise a lot of money that way!!!!

Or this in between  solution. My late friend, who died early from the stresses of the car business, used to tell me about the minor fender benders in Atlantic City.  His son is a detective in yet another town.   If an illegal is involved in it, or even caused the accident, the police are so powerless, they , (I’ll throw in the word sometimes because this is 3rd hand information now), let the driver go, as in drive away if the car is still operable, and try as best they can to explain (pacify?) to the citizen involved on the other end, that he or she will have to collect on their insurance.  Their day is made after that revelation I bet?

What a mess this is- while we wait for all of them to self deport like Mark thinks they will- all 20 million.  Mark who’s the stupid one? ( Mark, I call both sides stupid, have you noticed?) Amnesty is coming…….but Mark and Carla, you’ll love the fight leading up to it!  The “governors” take?  Get something in return before we give it away, because then its too late!   Blackmail Mexico into reforming.  It would be so easy if we had a boycott of Mexico by us, and the Mexicans that are here among us.  Force Calderon to put a few cops away, you can find them all over, in every small town hundreds of miles from the even worse problems at the border.   Childs play, compared to going after the drugs cartels.  

Why do I bother?  Why, because somebody, besides you folks here, is going to see this stuff eventually.

I really do have to ask this question about Alfonso.   He was brought here at age 14 (not a baby) and has lived in the U.S. for only 8 years and yet he says that Peru is a country he hardly knows?   Uh, he lived in Peru nearlly twice as long as he has lived here.   Just askin.

I thought the sarcastic, insulting, statement twisting  one was leaving for good.

I asked a question which of course she couldn't or wouldn't answer and that was "if Latinos got the same amnesty allotment or legal immigration allotment in numbers as every other ethnic group, how does that make me anti-Latino?  No answer of course.   She is just fine with the fact that amnesty would mostly benefit Latinos more than any others and to heck with all other immigrants waiting to come here that will have to wait longer because all those places were given to Latinos in an amnesty.   Nothing "revealing" about pointing that little FACT out on my part but certainly very revealing about anyone who thinks Latinos should get more than their fair share of the American Dream and to heck with everyone else.

I don't recall discussing any statements that Hilary has made and I certainly never heard her say anything like that about Latino neighborhoods but there are some like that.    Are you saying it would be racist to not want to live in the kind of neighborhood your described?   How so?

Oh she is going to make her grand exit (we can only hope as it has been a couple of days since the big announcement) by pulling the race card even though I said that Latinos should get no more or no less of the American Dream that other immigrants.  How is that racist?   Well at least it isn't on my part.   I am not the one favoring a particular group above others.   Look in the mirror!

I don't have to do anything to support "immigrant" rights.  Legal immigrants for the most part are treated just fine.  Why would I support some supposed rights of those in our country illegally?  I support immigration law and enforcement.   So there I do have a noble cause although you probably think obeying laws and putting Americans first is not a noble cause. There are no anti-immigration groups or individiuals that I know of.  Blurring those lines again are we?  Lies don't do anything to lend to your credibility.

Whom am I dividing and conquering?  My posts were addressing you and you alone.   The truth just hit a nerve about your partiality towards Latinos in our country illegally.  If it weren't so in your proposed amnesty you would make sure that many of these illegal Latinos would be replaced with other legal immigrants instead who are still waiting to come here.    All I asked for was equality in numbers for all ethnic groups.  You don't want that.   Diversity isn't allowing mostly one ethnic group of immigrants in here either or creating an amnesty that will benefit mostly one ethnic group.

There is no valid reason why we shouldn't continue with the enforcement of our immigration laws.  Not one!  It isn't inhumane to have them nor is it inhumane to enforce them.  I am sure your rules only apply to this country though.

It isn't your outspokeness that I object to just as long as you keep your race card in your pocket and don't spread lies or spin the truth with your choice of words that make whom we are actually talking about unclear.

I thought you were leaving here.   So why would we have to distance ourselves from each other?  That would happen automatically, wouldn't it?

 I've been hearing a lot of misleading information about migrants on this blog, and it's a bit hard to unpack and refute everything individually. So, I think the best response is just to direct you to some of the stellar blogs that Dave has penned on these topics. Please check the following blogs:

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/deconstructing_the_pseudo-environmental_objection_to_immigration

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/how_immigrants_make_you_safer

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/raids_help_drag_the_economy_down

All those topic's  claims were debunked also.  It doesn't matter anyway whether they are a positive for our nation or not.   The fact you cannot dispute is that they are here in violation of our immigrations and should be deported according to our laws.  I don't believe in rewarding illegal behavior.   We did it once and all it did was to encourage many more millions to come waiting for the next amensty.  When does it end?   Answer...never! 

Okay, one last posting, mostly for Gary.   If you cared to sleuth my e-life, you'd find I'm plastered all over the web.   Yes, I spend much too much time on the computer, a habit left over from years of Bushwacking.   Frankly, if I could, l'd love to quit the good fight and go back to my workshop.  

If the illegal immigrant population showed more respect, we might be more inclined to accommodate them.   Frankly, it's the belligerent "you can't make us leave" attitude on this issue that has made me sour and slowed me from proposing a plan for INDIVIDUAL, legal exceptions to deportation.   (I can't imagine ever supporting a blanket amnesty.)  

In my plan (Alien Sponsorship) everybody who is not here legally would be sought for deportation (which would include confiscation of all that illegal's U.S. goods except for personal and household belongings.  They will have had a three-month grace period to find a sponsor and complete the application for “adoption” or to leave the country on their own terms.  If during the grace period they can find a legal entity (citizen, company, church, etc.) that will "adopt" them--guarantee food and board, health coverage, for five years—that person may stay and work freely, and apply immediately for citizenship—in short, start fresh with our help and blessings.   Special rules would cover Selective Service and other such conditions as required by law.    

I like this because Alien Sponsorship would be controlled by reality--adjusting automatically to the current financial health of citizens--and fall mostly to those illegals who have already worked to learn English, who built ties with their adoptive country, made friends.  It would favor those persons whose outright need is indisputable and compelling.   Adoption would be the one and only path open to illegals to avoid deportation.  

Adoption would become our badge of honor.   We would be encouraged in every way possible to participate in this solution by sponsoring a person we think is a special case, a soul we just can’t allow to be sent away.    The required sponsorship fund could be raised in every imaginable way and prizes could be offered in schools for the best ideas—pot-luck dinners, poetry slams, cookie booths by the Girl Scouts, school projects of every description, tag sales, cat sitting and car washes, fairs, concerts, etc.   It would cause an outpouring of communication and goal-oriented camaraderie at a time when the country really needs to pull together—let the problem be the cure!

The government's single duty in all this would be to check the paperwork to see that all requirements are met--no trials, no judges, no police, no lawyers, no backlog, no time lag and virtually no real government money needed to deal with the problem (because petitioners would do all the legwork, paperwork, etc).   In practice, any illegal who can find a proper sponsor can "get legitimate" overnight.   

This plan reinforces the need to bring an immigrant across the threshold and into the community, impels them to learn the language, forces sympathizers to live the reality of their beliefs, leaving others alone to go about their business.   It is to be expected that some illegals might rather leave than hand over their savings and property to gain citizenship--which tests the integrity of their actual need for amnesty, now doesn’t it.   Some people won't find sponsors for a variety of reasons.   Some "adoptions" won't work and require dissolution/repair/??   Details would have to be worked out.   

Confiscation would constitute some payback to the U.S. for all the billion$ we've poured out for illegals over the years and it could be put toward a universal medical plan, which would then come back to aid those who chose to stay and gain citizenship in our beautiful, broken dream--where we desperately need to settle health care so that we can get back to work saving the damn country.      

Great stuff, Carla.  I favor a tax on foreign remittances because this will encourage this capital to stay in the US, to help support our infrastructure, pay for healthcare, education, etc.  Plus this will provide an additional revenue stream to help dig us out of our financial hole.

Thinking outside the box to provide innovative imaginative solutions  is what you do well.

As a P.S., one objection to the remittance tax is that other countries will do the same to us! (but they alreay do that)

carla!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i say this knowing that kurt beat me to it.  you think outside the box.  but let me wander a second like i do.  here's another problem we all have, i just read what you wrote real quick, took in 95% of it, anyone see what i'm getting at. probably not.  no matter, it was great, if i re read i'll probably find a few problems................so what!!!!! i scream at every body else to stop arguing about minutia.  i wish you could have been my running mate instead of my wife.  not so far fetched.  ronald reagan 1976 and richard schweiker.  sending you a friend request, change the picture.  this reads like morse code, so what.

my wife just happened to come down to do laundry, that's where this computer is.  i read this to her out loud with a big smile on my face but that might not help you or me, i'm a little nuts after 2 years pushing my own plan, and i've discovered i'm a little, not quite manic-depressive, there's another term for it  ??? so in other words, how does that help you knowing i think your plan is a viable alternative to mine LOL.

hope we talk on this blog some more.  by the way, even though your plan is much more sophisticated then mine, it has even a worse snowballs chance in hell of being liked then mine.  we just might be able to promote yours, the two of us, because you write so much better them me.  your plan is l great, and......this is what ana or mark don't get....anything is better then what we have now, or will get from these feckless politicians next year.

only problem i have with your plan is that it does nothing to fix the problem in Mexico.  mine does.  as far as details.  let the idiots gettting paid all this money in Washington and on talk radio work it out.

wouldn't it be a riot if your plan (which, i'll say agian,  i like) made it out onto the airwaves?  i'm the schmuck running for governor.  the masses could vote for me, not you unfortunately.  p.s. we already sponsored someone for 5 years, she's now a citizen.  ....how's this for a send off Carla...."Peace"

oh and carla, i forget to ask.  how many people in high places, like the "elite" media for instance, have you tried to send your idea to?   they're bastards aren't they!

The problem I have with any of the plans presented including the hard core, pro-illegal ones is that no one is suggesting that we research first how many foreign laborers we actually need in this country out of the millions that are here illegally.  No one is interested in researching how many down the line will affect our population growth in a negative way.   No one seems to think about how unfair it is that an amnesty will mostly benefit Mexicans and other Latinos.   Aren't we supposed to be a country that welcomes all immigrants rather than favoring this or that group in the unskilled area?  I understand why we favor Asians for the educated and skilled catagories but in the unskilled and uneducated catagories pretty much any other ethnic group could fit the bill.  

My suggestion would be if there is to be an amnesty that we first research how many foreign workers we actually need.   Keep population growth in mind.   Out of the many millions already here divide up equally the numbers amnestied by ethnic group and the balance go home.   If we still don't have enough foreign workers then pull equally from all ethnic groups that are still waiting to come and work here.

Mandate e-verify and deny any benefits such as instant citizenship to deter more illegal immigration and secure the border by any means necessary.   Thoughts?

"Thoughts?"  The first thing that comes to mind is for me to take two aspirin and go to bed.  Mark is the only one besides Kurt and me to comment on Karlas great moment?  karla see what i mean?  bupkus!  Maybe if i hadn't been directly involved with the immigrant community I'd give you a perfect 100%.  That's what dave and ana don't appreciate, regular people like Carla, Dave and sorry i haven't been reading Kurts threads thoroughly- kurt too, have to be satisfied that their rights aren't being trampled on (first).

Any how......carla, want to go down to Mexico? take your husband along?  If you saw what i saw, you'd really be furious.  It's nicer down there then here!  So what's mexico's excuse?  Answer, IF a regular person speaks out down there they're DEAD MEAT.

 When we come back we'll go on the road together like Buffalo Bills Wild West Show (not sure where that came from?)

I haven't seen Mexico yet, but I've seen the Favellas of Brazil and some "fine" places in Asia, not to speak of our own poor South, where I was raised, or some pretty horrible places in southern California near the border.   My husband used to fly to Mexico on business rather frequently and knows a lot of people down there.   He says that it is very beautiful once you get away from Tijuana, Nogales, etc.   Like I said, I'm old.   I've been around the world and swam both oceans, so to speak.  

No, Gary, this is the first time I've ever even spoken of my "fix" for the illegal immigrant problem.   Anybody who wants to claim it and try to make it work is welcome to try.  It is interesting how very quiet a few particular people have suddenly become on this page since I posted it.   I though I'd really get axed for being such a hard ass about it.  

Come on analisa, give us your fine thoughts on this.  You gotta get over being so shy girl.  

I'd like to put it on my web site, on a page that says "other voices" with your permission?

 Here’s a link that is relevant.  People use it!  I saw this clip this morning when looking up one of my all time favorite movies on you tube.  I was there once, not quite the same these days, but the mountains are just as nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhb1nJspbBI&feature=related

To nobody in particular I say that if it was you visiting someone who was the kid you never had, which Beto was when he lived here in the states, and you saw how beautiful Mexico is, and messed up- all at the same time, you’d  be on a crusade too when you got home, knowing he’s trapped in paradise with no good way to make a decent living.  Screw those bureaucrats down there (my plan is so perfectly simple, a boy***t.   Carla has a plan, the bureaucrats here and there have zippo, just like they have zippo ideas how to fix anything else.   Wait till the next energy disruption, we got one foot in the ground now, we’ll be buried.  Sorry Mark I think our energy policy is more of a national security threat then rounding up 12 million people who are integrated into the community now.  Got to go supper is calling…

In a hurry.  Some notes: 

Well, I don’t know how I got this way, but apparently, I'm so far out of the box that I’ve never even seen a right angle.    

What I hear from the Amnesty-Or-Else crowd is a lot of snarling and posturing and pontificating.   It used to amuse me a little, the sweeping generalizations, the basking in other peoples light, the sound of one lip flapping….   It doesn’t amuse me any more.  

Gary, I didn't address the problems inside Mexico because I really know next to nothing of those--at least current info.  On the border situation--I always FIRST try to make the problem be the solution.    If you use this criterion, then when you catch somebody trying to cross our border, you analyze the reason s/he chose that site and find a way to use that person to build up those defenses.   

My first thought is:  why build a wall?   Are we jealous of China?  That’s too much work.  It uses too many materials, presents an unnatural landscape, and interrupts wildlife.   Instead, put in slow-downs (prisoner labor) at the borders using natural land features whenever possible (water, cliffs, desert, ravines, etc.) supplemented with man-made adaptations (piled logs, rocks, briars, broken bottles, etc.  Most of the border could then be policed by low-flying drones with satellite imaging, backed by in-place and mobile microwave weapons (A.ctive D.enial S.ystems, tested for years) to police the border and dissuade crossing; the weapons make it impossible to proceed because of excruciating pain that nobody can resist.   These are weapons developed specifically to force rapid retreat without killing.  Of course there would be some border guards, but they would be more service oriented, like night watchmen—the human touch.