The vast majority of Citizens believe there should be CIR, however, to state that the majority agree with these principles and that these principles make sense, is quite the stretch.

Kurt for once I agree with you. If daddy beats mommy??? Get rid of daddy.

Kurt, If daddy beats mommy; mommy should tear that picture apart...and it doesn't matter to me where the guy is from but in many cases the woman seems to stay in that relationship and hide the abuse. Probably because the abuse has driven her self-esteem down to the point of guilt "she feels she caused it" and because she wants to desparately believe in that "white picket fence dream" and she is in denial...on the other hand much of the time the law doesn't remove the bad guy but that is a problem we have with our own citizens too. Domestic violence is a another issue but if the guy commits a felony then removing him is in the best interest of the woman and children....so I agree with you on this one.

Back to the Progressive Principles: I really do not anyone on the pro-side are argueing about hard criminal offenses. No one is defending them. I think the arguement is that we must focus on the real criminals and not people who commit minor offenses. 

(13. Repeal the sections of the 1996 law that redefined vast numbers of crimes as deportable offense when committed by immigrants. Imposing harsh penalties--often permanent exile--on  immigrants for minor criminal convictions like shoplifting or possession of marijuana.)

Minor offenses usually lead to more minor offenses, when is enough, enough? How many minor offenses should they get to have before they are held accountable for being here in violation of immigration law?

What would you have us do, lower our standards of living to be equal to the countries that illegal immigrants come from? NAFTA was suppose to allow Mexico to increase their standards of living to be closer to ours, for the most part it has.

Only those living outside of major foreign cities or in countries with dictators are living in real poverty, the ones coming from dictators can apply for asylum, but those coming here from say Mexico, from the mountainside regions with little to no business are the ones coming here when instead they should be going to the cities in their own countries, where all their jobs are.

People, young people,  leave home because home is boring.  That's the profile of most of these illegals.  Most of their "money" is going to pay off their coyote debts.

Can you give me a reliable and unbiased SOURCE on that ridiculous statement?

P.S. Kurt, you are on the wrong site. See, this is Change.org not PreserveStatusQuo.org You might want to stick to the extreme right wing at ALIPAC and NumbersUSA

Well, I am glad I brought my laptop to the veterans re-union. Kurt you are way out their with your solution.

The "undocumented" people I know did not leave their homes because they were bored and this is going to be a shocker to you but many of them have exceeded way past the point of paying off a coyote. They have entered and exited around 5 or more times and have investments in other country's that are worth a half a million and up. It shouldn't suprise you though?? Immigrants come here to search for a better life so they tend to be frugal with their money and invest it wisely. They do spend money in our economy but it is limited because the laws do not permit them to invest in the US. Their investments go back home because they feel safe with their family members watching over them. If they felt safe in the US and new that there money was secure I am sure they would invest in the purchase of homes in the US and they would also bank there money here and purchase more but with your way of thinking they have a mindset that they can be removed and every dollar earned could be there last dollar so they send most of it home. Not good for the US.

We have not really gone after the employers. They do not fear losing everything if they are caught therefore its a complete joke to them and they continue to abuse the system. They get around E-verify.

Like always the extreme right wing always shift the focus on the "undocumented" when asked to come up with a sensible solution as a way to scapegoat the real madness.

*A sensible plan is going after the employer and we obviously need more than E-Verify. We need employers pay fines that would take there entire life's earnings and we also need Unions to form across America with strength....and this will take alot of business away from the human smugglers, coyotes and traffickers. 

It always seems to me that the retrictionists attack big whenever I want the system to go after the business owners.."the cronys".

Now Kurt?? I ask you?? Are my ideas as radical as yours?

You want to arrest the "undocumented".

and I want the "business owners".

Isn't rather dumb to allow the underground business traffickers rather than then Continental??? The airlines are really hurting for round trip travelers. Could you imagine what and impact the airlines would have if 11.8 million were able to travel back and forth without fear?? Some of those airline pilots are flying for less than 17,000 dollars a year now. No...Kurt your solutions are just not in touch with the reality.

Mary, you seem to be not realizing that, let's use Mexico as an example, that the dollar is equal to 13 pesos. That quite a bit of money in Mexico, especially when there minimum wage is $53 Pesos per day, that's just over $4 US. Now if they can come here and make $4 in just 30 minutes instead of a full day, how would you solve this issue? Its cheaper for them to invest in their own countries, i.e. purchase a house there in a matter of only a few months to couple years here sending money home. How many other countries fall into the same category as Mexico? I would bet almost all of the Southern Hemisphere.

There are many surveys that point that 64% of Americans are for Commom Sense Immigration Reform and that includes a path to citizenship. Their ideas are pratical when it comes to reform. They include what is best for the US and they agree with these progressive principals.

To go after the employer is the practical approach. It would cost far less many to go after the magnet than to try to deport 11.8 million people. Americans have mixed feelings about you solutions Kurt. Some are concerned about the costs and the GNP and others are on the humanitarian issues or the feel strongly on both nevertheless they know your ideas are ridiciously impractical.

To go solely after the "undocumented" and call that a solution is radical and impractical.

That is why we have a reasonable package of ideals "read the progressive principals Kurt" that gives us a reasonable solution that goes after the magnet that draws people into our system the wrong way.

Most Americans are for CIR, whether they are for these "progressive principles" is yet to be seen. Those in this for Humanitarian reasons need to also look at the humanitarianism needed here in the US. I also would look at the environmental impacts brought on with a larger and continuously growing population. Look at our water supplies, Las Vegas is attempting to get water from locals north of the city, depleting these small towns, limiting growth in the small towns and eventually drying up these small towns. Also look at what is going on in California with Fresno, the water has been diverted to LA, now Fresno is becoming a dust region and people are losing their livelihoods.

The vast majority of Americans do agree with these progressive principals. Look at the polls. 64% do want to see the "undocumented" population on a path to citizenship. They do not want to punish the "undocumented" and want the employer to be the focus along with CIR and they do want our elected officials to come up with a solution to fix the problem.

Estudar, you are another poster without a real name. When you post information with your name and a pic then I will take your postings seriously...and alot of the info. you just posted is typical rhetoric I have seen again and again by "retrictionists".

I have to ask you this question? Where do you impose we get the $$$$ to deport 11.8 million people. Your solution is impossible. Our country is in debt. from bailing out banks and people who have lost our homes, fighting a war, funding our own US prison system. The last thing we need to do is spend our money trying to inhumanely round up all the "undocumented" in this country on a cold sick "witch hunt". Americans are realistic and they do not want this and you will find that they agree with the progressive principals.

Estudar do you realize that we are closing down military bases and we haven't enough money to take care of our own US veterans nevertheless we have seen our horrible system deport veterans that have protected our country and their spouses. Can you imagine that! They actually split up familys of US veterans who protected our country in Iraq!

It makes sense to go after the Employers with sensible legal quotas. Also when we talk about a broken Immigration system you need to look at the global picture. For some reason you "retrictionists" seem to focus on Mexico and Mexico only. I have many friends that are "undocumented" that are from Poland. Lets start looking at the entire world economy. We feed off of each other. If you actually think that we are going to survive in a nativist way you are in the past.

We have to go after the employer and you "right wingers" don't want to hear this but we need strong Unions again. This can not happen if Unions form.

Estudar you also need to supply me a list of the companys that were busted and the name of the owners. It doesn't much matter who they are or where they are from or how long they have been here. What matters is that they get busted.

When you say these company owners were only Immigrants it is only hearsay unless you post a list. There are many employers nationwide that hire the "undocumented" and I have met a few of them myself and they happen to be Americans that have been here for generations. You just sterotyped again. The violators of the law come from all different background.

Nice knee jerk reaction to my comment. First, I am no "right winger" I am a Democrat, center left. You have completely mis-read what it was I stated and you stereo typed me. As for a list of Employers being immigrants themselves, you can search all the news cases, but here are a few: Rabushkin - Immigrant; The Poultry Plants - HR department same ethnicity, hispanic/Latino; New Haven - Immigrant; Pallet Company - HR department same ethnicity, hispanic/Latino; Motor Vehicles Departments busted for bribes for License - same ethnicity, hispanic/Latino. As for deporting 12M, I never mentioned deportation, you have assumed based on your stereotyping of me. Most people being deported, veterans, etc. have been found guilty of violations of laws which breaks their promise of their legal residency, so yes they deserve it.

Please post this 64% want Citizenship poll. Also post where it is Citizens want these "progressive pricipals", I'm betting you can't or your claim is actually wrong.

As for my name, sorry it is real, it is my last name.

Estudar, We all know who you are!! "Liquiod" and as for being a Democrat, center to the left..I have waited to see you demonstrate something that was even center, nevertheless a wee bit to the left. I haven't seen evidence yet.

As for employers that hire the undocumented. You left out McDonalds, Target, Burger King, Ihop, Applebees, practically every local Dinner in the US, Auto plants, practically any cleaning service that is hired by amost every corporation nationwide, landscapeing businesses, Sorry but most of the people I know that abuse the system happen to be almost all businesses. And landlords....LANDLORDS...Oh boy!! Tons and tons of landlords nationwide.

Post the Polls. Dave Bennion posted them several times with the articles he wrote and his own personal posts. Just look them yourself since you are the Copy, Paste and Post King.

Now, You dodged the biggest question I noticed. I asked you how you were going to come up with an ideal of how to pay for your "Nazi" approach of rounding up 11.8 million of the "undocumented" and hauling them off and detaining them like animals???????? Are you going to fund this yourself because we don't have the money or do we want to appear to be insaine "sadomasicists" to the entire rest of the world.

Also you also dodged the fact that we do not have enough in our budget to take care of our own veterans that are comming back from the war after serving our country. They are taking apart Military bases and beneifits for our soldiers. We need to turn all these immigrant detention centers into Military bases and Veterans hospitals. You talk about your concern for your fellow Americans. I ask you why you are wasteing your time focusing on the "undocumented" and why you are not advocateing help for your soldiers.

The best punishment for someone that has no status in this country would be either paying a fine or giving up a few hours of time to help out in our communitys as a volunteer if they do not have the money to pay the fine.

Wow, your a pleasant one. First you stereotype me as some right winger, now I am someone else and I have a "nazi" approach? My profile name is an Anagram for A. Duster.

McDonald's, are you referring to the illegal immigrants that were caught in Nevada, it was a franchise and not the corporation itself. All the other companies you have mentioned, do you have proof they hire illegal immigrants? Walmart was caught using a company that hired them for after hours cleaning. Landlords? How do they play into the picture when it is against the law to ask for status when renting to a person? Please provide proof.

Who is Dave Bennion? I asked for a link to these polls you have. Will you provide a link? Please, educate me on the military bases and Veterans, as I have no idea what they have to do with this discussion.

From one woman to another, chill girl. I never mentioned deporting anyone. My above comment doesn't mention deporting anyone. Are you always this way to others? This is all opinion, yours, mine, everybody else's, so relax.

Everything you are posting points the finger to the "undocumented" and avoids the "employers".

From one woman to another you have to realize you really have know business telling me how to express myself. Woman typically do not make comments like that.

The head of all these Franchise's know exactly what their store owners are doing. I have worked for restaurant Franchises before and know how they operate. They have ways of scapegoating the laws.

If you focus on the "employer" and admit there is a serious mix of people that are violating the laws nationwide then I can have a normal conversation with you but when you focus entirely on a group of "immigrants" and dodge the real magnet your agenda becomes quite transparent that you want the cronys to get away with their "cheap labor" practices.

Their are landlords that have serious violations of codes. They are fully aware that they house many immigrants into one household without fire escapes and alarms. I know a landlord that is not an Immigrant. He is a US borned citizen that is housing 10 Immigrants in a small appartment without a fire escape or alarms. He is also charging them over $400 dollars a month each. This landlord is collection $4000 dollars a month and has additional appartments with many immigrants (includeing infant children) that he practices the same business routine above his dry-cleaning business. The local town officials look the other way when it comes to the violation of safety codes.

You should start to focus on the magnet, "the employers".

What is your solution to this problem?

Also, Obama is trying to pass a bill that gives our disabled vets a quick $250 check. I do not have to google and paste for you. Just watch the news!!! 

By the way Estudar, You are an unusual Democrat? You believe in a womans right to choose which is a liberal thing to do but than you don't think a woman has a right to healthcare? OK.

You look very new to the blog. I noticed you just signed on to change.org

Welcome to the blog my little to the left Democratic friend.

Where have I pointed the finger at only the undocumented? I clearly said those that have been caught hiring illegal immigrants are but immigrants themselves. Yes, as the employer or the one that hired the illegal immigrant, they should also be held accountable and from what I have been reading and from what I have seen here in GA, they are being held accountable, all parties involved. I agree with the way this is.

I see you can't prove the heads of the franchises are hiring these people but your allegations are enough to prove to you they are guilty. If you have proof they indeed know they are hiring them, then you have a responsibility to turn the corporate head/franchise owners in for law violations. So, how many have you turned in? Why are you allowing these heads to get away with exploitation?

So what agenda do I have by not claiming someone is an illegal immigrant if I have no proof?

If, as you say, these people are cheap labor and are being exploited at let's say, McDonald's, how do I go about proving they are illegally working and that they are being forced to work cheaply? I thought this country had a minimum wage law and that if you are employed, on payroll or receive a paycheck, you are guaranteed to be paid at least that amount.

As for Landlords, again, if you are aware of this happening wouldn't it be better to inform the building code inspector? It might keep these properties from becoming unsafe for the persons living in them if they are as bad as you are claiming. What have you done about saving these peoples lives in places like this? What if one of these properties you know of burned down and killed the occupants, would that make you an accomplice for knowing the conditions of the property but doing nothing to get it up to code?

Maybe you could get a group together and petition and protest the living conditions and safety violations that are being violated, force the city to make the landlord do something to better the living conditions for these people. This is what I would do.

What does the $250 stimulus have to do with this discussion? It's part of the stimulus bill already passed, Obama is asking Congress to extend it to next year since there will be no cost of living increase in their payments next year.

Health Care is a privilege, it is not a right guaranteed by our Constitution. A woman has a Right to choose what she does to her body just like a man does. Sorry, I believe in Darwin's theory. I believe that women should not pay more for their health services than a man having the same service performed. Just a quick note, shop your doctors like you do your cars, look for the best deal, you can get health care a lot cheaper than paying for a policy that limits what you can have happen to you. I do have a policy for emergency care that is affordable, and with 3 kids, it does come in when you need it.

Hey I have an ideal. I really don't want to talk to you that much because your a waste of my time. I honestly think your a huge liar and I haven't much time for lies about who you are and what you stand for based on your own personal agendas. If you want. You do not have a real solution to the problems we face today and I need to move on and make more phone calls and sign more petitions to pass Immigration Reform. I also have the Corizine campaign to work on. Adios my friend.

I agree with what Obama is doing when it comes to illegal immigration, I think the administration is on the right path, holding employers and those who have hired them, accountable.

What have I supposedly lied about for you to think I am a liar? What personal agenda do I have? Didn't I give solutions above to stop the exploitation you are allowing?

If you don't want to talk to me and I am a waste of your time, then by all means don't respond to me or my comments. Sorry if you wasted your time responding to me.

The comments above are getting really long, I see you moved down here.

Above you accused me of using rhetoric, yet here you are doing the same thing. My comments above ask what have you done about the exploitation for cheap labor you claim is happening? If you know these companies are doing this, don't you have an obligation to turn them in? Why should an employer be liable for paying for your health care? Shouldn't all people contribute into health care, including the employers?

What is a "retrictionists"?

Where do I support "cheap labor" and "exploitation" as you describe? It seems to me that you are the one allowing it to happen if you know that these companies are in fact doing what you say. How many companies have you turned in?

If my solutions penalize all parties involved, how are they unreasonable? If the persons are penalized/fined, how is that not cost efficient? What is inhumane about forcing the landlord to repair the structures and make them safe according to code? What is inhumane is, if you know about these conditions like you say, allowing these people to live in conditions that are unsafe for their well being. You don't seem to be very helpful to those you claim to be a champion for. Do you have an issue with self esteem? Does it make you feel good to claim to champion a cause, but do nothing to really help them when you allow them to continue living the way they are?

First of all Estudar if you were a conservative Democrat you would support the middles class. If you support the middle class you would want to go after the employers because there is a corporate responsibility.

You ask me to turn these employers in. I ask you where do I go to do this? Our system is not set up to turn the employer in. I do not have access to start an investigation on every corporation in the US.

A conservative Democrat supported the cold war and that is over. A conservative Democrat defended the middle class in time of peaks prosperity. A conservative Democrat favored welfare reform and were past that now. A conservative Democrat would demand a penalty for the Immigrant but not an unreasonable one. A conservative Democrat would probably take the position John Mccain took on Immigration.

My friend, you are no conservative Democrat.

Where do you stand?

What have you done for the issue?

Aren't you a champion for the cause?

If I was to go the town they wouldn't listen to anything I reported because our system is focusing on the "undocumented" to scapegoat the employer.

I am not going to go on and on in circles with you. You are running out of talking points that make any sense.

Now I am a Conservative Democrat? What will you come up with next? I thought being center-left was a Moderate Democrat. Obama is a Moderate Democrat and I agree with his handling of immigration issues so far. What I am not, is a Progressive Democrat, for which I guess you are.

If you were to go to the Code Enforcement Office in the town you know these buildings are below code and unsafe, all you have to do is file a form and give the conditions you are aware of. Its really simple to do. Immigration has nothing to do with code violations of buildings.

If you think you are going in circles with me, then as above, plesae stop responding to my comments.

What kind of a comment is that? You have no proof that they would leave voluntarily.

My guess is that many of them have more manhood inside then you carry in your keyboard pinky.

My guess is if there was a draft many of them would defend this country voluntarily!!

A huge majority of the "undocumented" happen to be Hispanic.

It shouldn't surprise that many Hispanics do defend this country....and they are usually "working class" people.

Common sense would tell you that a good amount of these "working class" people would join the US army.

So did our ancestors but they fought for America!

You would need to review each on case by case basis.