Private Prison as Stimulus
Published April 02, 2009 @ 05:00AM PT
[Change.org's Criminal Justice blogger Matt Kelley guest blogs here today about the consequences of privatization and proliferation of immigration detention. Check out Matt's blog today for my guest post there about the DREAM Act. - DB]
Cities and towns from coast to coast are struggling to stay afloat in this recession and they're grasping for any new industry that will move to town - including one that profits from locking up immigrants, private prisons. It's sad that the warehousing of immigrants is one of few stable industries in the United States today, but it'll stay that way as long a cycle of profit surrounds our immigration policy.
Local governments are tripping over one another to get a piece of the private prison pie. Two news stories this week - from Baldwin County, Georgia and Morton, Mississippi - make plain the unapologetic drive of municipal governments to become prison towns to create jobs and industry when manufacturing and other industries are dying and moving away. The destructive immigration policies that siphon thousands of people into these prisons are viewed as nothing more than fodder in an economic machine.
It doesn't have to be this way. Instead of locking up undocumented immigrants, we could focus on enabling hard-working people to pursue their dreams and stimulate the economy through work and innovation rather than through prison profits.
Today on the Criminal Justice blog, Dave Bennion writes about the promise of the DREAM Act, which - as you know - would allow undocumented immigrants to pursue legal status through college education or military service. Passage of the DREAM Act would be a big step in the right direction, for an America that should allow us to pursue our personal and professional goals. But until progressive reforms like this take root, we're dangling the American Dream before the eyes of millions, only to divert them to being warehoused in our private prisons, working and living for someone else's profit.
There's a feedback loop that fills these facilities for private profit. Right now, big private prison companies like Corrections Corporation of America and GEO lobby the government to maintain strict immigrations laws that will keep their prison beds filled. Congresspersons don't want to let down constituents in Baldwin County and Morton, so they vote for stricter immigration policies and further privatization. The community most directly affected by this warehousing of human lives doesn't vote, so they're left out of the loop altogether.
Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of immigrants are detained in these prisons for countless reasons - many of them unfounded or simply mistakes. While undocumented immigrants can't legally work on the outside, they can work in private prisons - for a dollar a day while the prison corporation profits from their labor. Conditions are poorly regulated and solitary confinement is common. A man in a GEO Group prison in Texas died last year after spending a full year in isolation.
Just like in the criminal justice system that has relied on incarceration for three decades and has failed to address crime, ever-expanding raids and private prisons aren't a solution for immigration. There's so much to gain by shifting the focus from mass incarceration to a path to legal status. But until the profit is cut from the equation, it'll be a hard fight to win.
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Comments (92)
Comments on Change.org are meant for further exploration and evaluation of the ideas covered in the posts. To that end, we welcome constructive comments. However, we reserve the right to delete comments that are offensive, abusive, or off-topic; that contain ad hominem attacks; or that are designed to subvert or hijack comment threads rather than contribute to them. Repeat offenders may be permanently removed from the site at our discretion.
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Matt has worked and volunteered in various capacities in criminal justice reform for several years. When he's not blogging, he works as the Online Communications Manager at the Innocence Project. Views expressed here are Matt's, and don't represent the positions of the Innocence Project.
Great post, Matt! What's frightening is just how systematized immigrant detention and anti-immigrant hysteria has become. Of course, they work hand in hand. As Roberto Lovato has pointed out, this country has come "dangerously close to normalizing hatred of immigrants in its media, in its legislatures and in its streets." Of course, both politicians and corporations have profited greatly from the anti-immigrant climate. But so is the government. In fact, there is an intersectionality of interests which makes this an even more daunting fight the longer it goes unchallenged. I'd like to quote a few passages from Lovato's excellent essay "Building the Homeland Security State" to demonstrate the intersectional nature of the problem and a good argument for challenging it:
"Lost in debates around immigration, as the United States enters its greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, is any sense of the historical connection between immigration policy and increased government control—of citizens."
...
"while many can believe that there were ulterior motives behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, few consider that there are non-immigration-related motives behind ICE’s Al Qaeda-ization of immigrants and immigration policy: building a domestic security apparatus, one made possible by multibillion-dollar contracts to military-industrial companies like Boeing, General Electric, and Halliburton for "virtual" border walls, migrant detention centers, drones, ground-based sensors, and other surveillance technology for use in the Arizona desert that was originally designed for Middle Eastern war zones. Not to mention the de facto militarization of immigration policy through the deployment of 6,000 additional National Guard troops to the U.S.-Mexico border; thousands of raids across the country; and the passage of hundreds of punitive, anti-migrant state and federal laws like the Military Commissions Act, which denies the habeas corpus rights of even legal residents who are suspected of providing "material support" to terrorist groups."
...
"As David Cole put it in his Enemy Aliens: Double Standards and Constitutional Freedoms in the War on Terrorism (The New Press, 2005): "What we are willing to allow our government to do to immigrants today creates a template for how it will treat citizens tomorrow." Constant reports of raids on the homes of the undocumented immigrants normalize the idea of government intrusion into the homes of legal residents."
...
"By placing other government functions under the purview of the national security imperatives laid out in the two documents, the Bush administration enabled and deepened the militarization of government bureaucracies like ICE. At the same time, immigrants provided the Bush administration a way to facilitate the transfer of public wealth to military-industrial contractors through government contracts in a kind of Homeland Security Keynesianism."
...
"Shortly after the September 11 attacks and the creation of DHS, the Bush administration used immigrants and fear of outsiders to tighten border restrictions, pass repressive laws, and increase budgets to put more drones, weapons, and troops inside the country. Government actions since 9/11 point clearly to how the U.S. government has set up a new Pentagon-like bureaucracy to fight a new kind of protracted domestic war against a new kind of domestic enemy, undocumented immigrants."
...
"In the process of restructuring the immigration bureaucracy, national security concerns regarding threats from external terrorist enemies got mixed in with domestic concerns about immigrant "invaders" denounced by a growing galaxy of anti-immigrant interests."
...
"At a time when less than 18% of the U.S. population believes it is living the American Dream, according to one poll, the state needs many reasons to reassert control over the populace by putting more gun-wielding government agents among the citizenry."
...
"A brief look at historical precedents for this kind of government anti-immigrant action yields the conclusion that this instrumentalizing of immigrants to build up government policing and military capabilities is, in fact, a standard practice of the art of statecraft. The historical record provides ample evidence of how national security experts, politicians, elected officials, bureaucrats and other managers of the state have used immigrants and anti-immigrant sentiments and policies as a way of normalizing and advancing militarization within the borders of the United States."
(Then he goes into our history of scapegoating immigrants and using them to normalize repression: 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, Red Scare of 1919, Palmer Raids, Internment of Japanese-Americans, etc.)
"it is important to connect the creation of ICE and its placement under DHS to the perpetual drive of government to expand its powers, especially its repressive apparatus and other mechanisms of social control. From this perspective, the current framing of the issue of immigration as a "national security" concern—one requiring the bureaucratic shift toward "Homeland Security"—fits well within historical practices that extend government power to control not just immigrants, but those born here, most of whom don’t see immigration policy affecting them."
...
"Such a situation necessitates the institutionalization of the war on immigrants in order to get as many armed government agents into a society that may be teetering on even more serious collapse as seen in the recession and economic crisis devastating core components of the American Dream like education, health care, and home ownership."
...
"Perhaps the most salient difference between today’s security state and those of the past is the central importance of the private sector. And unlike the previous periods, the creation of massive bureaucracies superseded the need to surveil, arrest, and deport migrants. Today, there appears to be a move to make permanent the capacity of the state to pursue, jail and deport migrants in order to sustain what we might call the migration-military-industrial complex, following Deepa Fernandes, Targeted: National Security and the Business of Immigration (Seven Stories Press, 2007). Several indicators make clear that we are well on our way to making the war on immigrants a permanent feature of a government in crisis."
...
"Multibillion-dollar contracts for border security from DHS have created an important new market for aerospace companies like General Electric, Lockheed, and Boeing, which secured a $2.5 billion contract for the Secure Borders Initiative, a DHS program to build surveillance and other technological capabilities (see "Barricading the Border"). That some saw in 9/11 an opportunity to expand and grow government technological capabilities—and private sector patronage—through such contracts, can be seen in DHS’s 'national laboratory for homeland security.'"
...
"Like its predecessor, the military-industrial complex, the migrant-military-industrial complex tries to integrate federal, state, and local economic interests as increasing numbers of companies bid for, and become dependent on, big contracts like the Boeing contract or the $385 million DHS contract for the construction of immigrant prisons.11 Like its military-industrial cousin, the migrant-military-industrial complex has its own web of relationships between corporations, government contracts, and elected officials. Nowhere is this connection clearer than in the case of James Sensenbrenner, the anti-immigrant godfather, who sponsored HR 4437, which criminalized immigrants and those who would help them. According to his 2005 financial disclosure statement, Sensenbrenner held $86,500 in Halliburton stocks and $563,536 in General Electric; Boeing is among the top contributors to the congressman’s PAC (Sensenbrenner also owns stocks in the Olive Garden restaurant chain, which hires undocumented workers.)12 The current war on immigrants is grounded in the need to build and maintain massive policing bureaucracies like ICE and DHS. The immigrant-rights movement must clearly understand this if it is to succeed in its strategies for the right to migrate, the right to work, and the right of migrants to share the fruits of their own labor."
--Roberto Lovato, "What will Obama do About Terror Incognita: Building the Homeland Security State" (Nov. 17, '08)
http://ofamerica.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/what-will-obama-do-about-terror-incognita-immigrants-and-the-homeland-security-state/
Posted by A R on 04/02/2009 @ 05:30PM PT
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*so has the government (typo)
sorry, this is so long. this is one of those stellar essays that is hard to cut without losing important material. I highly recommend that you read it in full.
Posted by A R on 04/02/2009 @ 05:41PM PT
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I am married to an immigrant. He learned English and forgot most of the German he spoke as a child. In fact, there is no trace of a German accent in his voice. He knows more about our laws and the constitution then most people who are US citizens by birth. He is a proud veteran of the US Air Force. He swore two oaths to up hold the US constitution and laws of our lands, one when he became a citizen and one when he joined the Air Force.
I know other immigrants who waited to get into this county exhibiting, in doing so, respect for our immigration laws. They learned English. They learned our laws and our constitution. They swore an oath to up hold the US constitution and the laws of our lands. Interestingly, most naturally born US citizens have never sworn an oath to uphold the constitution or laws of the United States of America. We have only pledged allegiance which is different.
Alien people are people born in foreign countries unless they are born in a foreign country to US citizens. My son is a US citizen born abroad to US citizens. His birth was registered with the US embassy in London, England. Depending on our treaties with the country in which the child is born, the child may carry dual citizenship. While a child born abroad to US citizens is a US citizen, that child may not become the President of the United States because the child was not born on US soil or the soil of US possessions or territories.
Alien (foreign) people who come to the United States of America ILLEGALLY are simply BREAKING THE LAW. They show by their actions that they do not respect our laws even if they comply with every other law. The United States of America, like other countries, put people in jail or prison for breaking the law. Jails and prisons are not meant to be hotels with maid service. They are jails and prisons. Are some jails and prisons better than others, of course, but they are still jails and prisons.
I am a therapist who works with people who have criminal records. They are called offenders because they broke the law. They all had thinking errors that lead to their choice to break the law. They all needed to experience the consequence of their behavior to help them correct their thinking. Unfortunately, some of them never chose to correct their thinking and returned to old illegal behavior which will lead to additional consequences because of their behavior.
The alien people who cross our boarders illegally have thinking errors that they do not need to complete the paperwork and present to paperwork to the immigration department, find a US sponsor who will help them find a job, and wait their turn to enter the United States of America legally. If the alien person is a very young children, they are under the influence of an adult who has the above stated thinking errors. I would agree to separating parents with young children from other illegal aliens; however, all of the people who came here illegally need to be arrested and deported to their homeland. This is the consequence of their illegal behavior. Hopefully, this consequence will help them correct their thinking.
The proud wife of an immigrant!
Deb Amburn
Posted by Deb Amburn on 04/04/2009 @ 09:32AM PT
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With all due respect, I think you are the one who suffers from "thinking errors," Deb. How many times does Dave have to tell you folks that it is a civil violation to be in this country without authorization - not a crime! Yet, you continually refer to the undocumented as "illegal aliens," "criminals," etc., which says more about your prejudices ("thinking errors") than anything else. And you say you are a therapist, yet you talk about HUMAN BEINGS as if they are disposable. Tell me, what school of therapy did you study to be so lacking in empathy (if indeed, you are a therapist)??
You talk as if there is some straightforward path to legalize one's status. As Dave has told you time and again: "there is no line of people from many countries south of the border because they are excluded from the immigration lottery each year." Please educate yourself before you start spouting nonsense! Follow the link:
http://www.citizenorange.com/orange/2008/03/there-is-no-line.html
Or are you going to persist in arguing with an immigration attorney who has taken the time to study the intricacies of immigration law (one of the most complex areas of law)? I would hope that some of you (restrictionists) would take the time to actually read Dave's blogs and learn something. Your ignorance is showing and it's not pretty!
Posted by A R on 04/04/2009 @ 06:15PM PT
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"With all due respect, I think you are the one who suffers from "thinking errors," Deb. How many times does Dave have to tell you folks that it is a civil violation to be in this country without authorization - not a crime!"
Illegal entry into the United States is, in its least form, a midemeanor which IS criminal. Illegal entry, repeat offense (and I think smuggling, etc?) becomes a felony. "Midemeanor" does NOT mean civil or summary offense, it means a CRIME.
What is with some of you people who REFUSE to accept that when people hike across the desert or swim the Rio Grande, rather than entering through a point of entry and showing documents, IT IS ILLEGAL.
Yes. They are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, and have committed a CRIME.
If you DONT LIKE IT, I suggest you guys march on DC with your demands that no one ever be charged with a crime for subverting our national security and immigration checkpoints, ok? Sounds like a plan?
Posted by J L on 04/04/2009 @ 08:38PM PT
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Civil violations are things like divorcing your spouse, dumping trash on your neighbors lawn, and as OJ proved, killing your spouse is a civil violation as well.
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/04/2009 @ 11:13PM PT
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This is to respond to Deb, "The proud wife of an immigrant!", and John Lehman.
John, I suggest you do a little research before trying to make a point (of prejudice) about something you do not actually have a clue.
As a threhold matter, please note that crossing the border illegally is not a misdeamenor; it is a civil violation. Two or three entries, become a crime.
True, it is ILLEGAL to cross the border without papers. However, it was that ILLEGALITY that made the United States what it is today. Otherwise, the US would still be an Indian Nation. It was that ILLEGALITY committed by people from other nations that gave the United States solid grounds to become a powerful country and a country of opportunities, not only for Native American, but also for all those ILLEGAL ALIENS that came through the waters (and not through the points of entry).
I'd like to ask John: Please look at where did your ancestors came from, and let me know if the ones that were not born in the US, cross the border through a point of entry? If they did, whether they did so legally or ILLEGALLY.
If everybody that crossed the border ILLEGALLY at "that time" had been taken to Jail as CRIMINALS, the US would not be what it is today.
Thanks God, people like you were not around enforcing the laws at that time.
P.S.: I do not think that commit violations (even if civil) are OK. But, what about if we pass a law that anytime you get a parking ticket, you go to prison for "violating the law." Would you (John and Deb) like such a law? In any event, it is an ILLEGALITY.
Posted by Jose Perez on 04/06/2009 @ 11:11AM PT
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Yes, Jose, IT IS ILLEGAL.
We the People and our representatives have since made laws that reflect the needs of this nation and its security. Some other nations would just shoot the people they see entering illegally - we simply try to enforce a policy. Some nations just dont allow people in...
Have you even stopped to think about the things that are crossing the borders, which the govt is trying to get a grip on? Laundered money, guns, human trafficking, etc etc., and you think its a good idea to become more lenient on illegal border crossing?
Like I said, if you want people to be allowed to just walk across the desert, into our society, and start claiming the Social Security *I* have paid into - go to DC and get the law changed. Explain to congress how entering this nation via our established process and checkpoints is not relevant or important.
Im sure theres someone who will listen, some California rep. maybe.
Posted by J L on 04/06/2009 @ 12:15PM PT
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Oh, and the USC law about illegal entry? It is simply civil on the first offense, right?
Yes, there are specific civil penalties for the first offense of illegal crossing, but that is simply supplementary to the criminal penaty.
I THINK YOU, Jose, need to get the facts straight. USC 1325 (a) provides for (under title 18, which is criminal code) up to 6 months in prison in the first offense, and 2 years on subsequent offenses. § 1325 (b) simply provides for additional civil penalties for the specific act of crossing illegally.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001325----000-.html
§ 1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact,
shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of-
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph
(1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection. Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
And while we are at it, there is also law providing for 5 years for an illegal alien using falsified documents to gain entry or get work, and they arent even GETTING these penalties.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=entry&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001546----000-.html
Posted by J L on 04/06/2009 @ 12:31PM PT
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Sorry, in case I confused you, I didnt specify the exact reference - thats Immigration code, Title 8, chapter 12, § 1325. The criminal penalties in section (a) are clearly classified under title 18 (criminal).
Posted by J L on 04/06/2009 @ 01:11PM PT
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John,
You still got it wrong. This is a "General Penalty Provision" and not a misdemeanor and/or felony as you mistakenly thought it was. Sorry....but you still need to get the facts straight!!!
Posted by Jose Perez on 04/07/2009 @ 10:44AM PT
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No, it is not I who has it wrong. I did some searching, because its CLEARLY stated in title 12 that they are fined/imprisoned under title 18, yet so many of you think its not actually a crime to break into our nation.
You and many others are simply either confused or exaggerating a 2007 appeals court ruling. From the court opinion:
"[Federal law] declares an alien's unsanctioned entry into the United States to be a crime. While Congress has criminalized illegal entry into this country, it has not made the continued presence of an illegal alien in the United States a crime unless the illegal alien has previously been deported and has again entered this country illegally," the court opinion said. "[Federal law] makes it a felony for an alien who has been deported to thereafter reenter the United States or at anytime thereafter be found in the United States."
What the court was saying is that releasing a drug dealer on probation will not further a crime, since the act of continuing to live in the USA is only a civil offense.
The court ALSO very clearly stated that the initial ACT of violating the visa or entering illegally IS A FEDERAL CRIMINAL OFFENSE.
Now back to title 12, up to 6 months for first offense: UNDER CHAPTER 18. CRIMINAL CODE.
Misdemeanor: any crime against the United States which is punishable up to 1 year in prison
Felony: any crime against the United States which is punishable by more than 1 year.
Yes, they continued living in the USA is NOT a criminal offense unless they have already been ordered out once, BUT they commited the crime already when they chose to enter illegally or violate their visa. HENCE, CRIMINALS.
Anyway, I have nothing in the world against IMMIGRANTS. In fact, I am trying to get my to-be wife to the United States currently. Guess how? LEGALLY.
Posted by J L on 04/08/2009 @ 07:10PM PT
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As an immigration lawyer who has spent considerable time in several immigration detention centers, I fully agree with Matt. Those jails--call them whatever we want--are horribly managed, horrid places waiting for sheer catastrophe to erupt.
http://www.crimmigration.com/
Posted by César Cuauhtémoc García Hernández on 04/03/2009 @ 06:15AM PT
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Because of the quality of the people hired for detention facilities there is always the prospect of abuse and mismanagement. The answer is to reward the contractors based primarily on their throughput numbers rather than the number of detainee days and throw something into the equation for improving the conditions for the detainees. Reducing the numbers and the length of stay using the throughput measure would clear up most of the problems immediately.
Posted by Gordon Johnson on 04/04/2009 @ 09:59AM PT
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I think youre just touching on one facet of the real problem - the private prison industry itself. As long as there is profit in stockpile humans, there will always be an angle at putting the people there.
Yes, its taking profit from illegal immigration problem, but it is NO MORE evident anywhere than in the war on drugs. What was the number? 1.8 million people arrested for drugs alone last year? Our own citizens are being exploited by this heinous system much more so than illegal immigrants.
There was even a case in Luzerne Co., PA recently where two judges were invested in prisons, youth centers in this case, and they signed orders both closing state run facilities and ordering the county to pay the private facilities - funding which ultimately ended up in these two judges' pockets.
To further this scheme, they were sending kids to jail even in cases where the government recommended NOT TO. The FBI press release even points at kids going to jail that otherwise wouldnt.
The pofiteering from human trafficking by our justice systems is one of the greatest disgraces in the United States and the only solution - dismantle prisons as an "industry" and return prisons to the public system, rather than private.
Posted by J L on 04/03/2009 @ 07:43AM PT
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i don't know what you people are talking about. these are human beings not aliens. aliens are little green creatures with glowing heads. they are gods children just like you and me and everybody. the sooner the government figures that out the better.
Posted by cheryl estrada on 04/03/2009 @ 09:46AM PT
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Cheryl;
Alien is a term which is used all over our legal code. It basically means foreigner, as opposed to native and includes all foreign beings including extraterrestrial beings as well as Italians.
Main Entry:alien
Part of Speech:nounDefinition:foreign being
Synonyms:blow in*, floater, foreigner, greenhorn*, guest,immigrant, incomer, interloper, intruder,invader, migrant, newcomer, noncitizen,outsider, refugee, settler, squatter, stranger,visitor, weed*
Antonyms:citizen, countryman, national, native, settler
Posted by Wire Paladin on 04/03/2009 @ 10:34AM PT
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There should be no private prisons! Period.
Half the people in jails now are there for drug-related offenses, most of them trivial, some bogus (such as the 45 African-Americans from one tiny Texas town who were falsely convicted on the testimony of one dirty cop).
Reform the drug laws and get the other minor, nonviolent "offenders" out of jail. Then there would be plenty of room in government-run prisons.
This "business" of private prisons has got to stop! Did everyone see the news lately about crooked judges in Pennsylvania who were imprisoning juveniles in return for a hefty kickback from private prisons?
Private prisons of any kind are a travesty and should be outlawed. There is just too much incentive for corruption.
Don't jail undocumented aliens. Either send them home or give them amnesty. Do something, but don't put them in prison unless they have committed a real crime (not just overstaying their visa.).
One reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is that the U.S. systematically destroyed democracies in Latin America for decades, trained death squads at the School of the Americas, and forced politicians to destabilize their own economies.
As a nation, we have a lot to answer for, so when the poor refugees come here for safety and a way to feed their families, we do not have the moral high ground. We owe them.
We certainly should not be separating families and imprisoning children.
There is a huge anti-immigrant trend, and it is a political creation, as it has been from time to time throughout American history. It is a way to distract the nonthinkers from the real problems that we have and focus their anger on those who can least defend themselves.
If you think that there is not an anti-immigrant movement, you must not live in the Southwest. Here in Texas it is very real. It is also racist.
Posted by Kathleen Gresham on 04/03/2009 @ 11:11AM PT
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"One reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is that the U.S. systematically destroyed democracies in Latin America for decades, trained death squads at the School of the Americas, and forced politicians to destabilize their own economies.
As a nation, we have a lot to answer for, so when the poor refugees come here for safety and a way to feed their families, we do not have the moral high ground. We owe them."
Thank you for saying this, Katherine. Excellent points...I couldn't agree more!
Posted by A R on 04/04/2009 @ 06:24PM PT
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*Kathleen (my apologies!)
Posted by A R on 04/04/2009 @ 06:52PM PT
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I am sick and tired of hearing people classify those who violate our laws by being in our country illegally as immigrants. It is a direct slap in the face of those who have done the right thing and come here legally. THEY are the immigrants. And the USA welcomes more legal immigrants per year than any other country in the world. We are NOT anti-immigrant. We ARE, however, anti-illegal. Calling an illegal an immigrant is akin to calling a home invader an uninvited house guest! If people want to be welcomed here and treated with dignity and respect then they need to come here LEGALLY.
Posted by Barbara Ervin on 04/03/2009 @ 12:12PM PT
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Indeed.
Posted by J L on 04/03/2009 @ 12:48PM PT
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Actually, Barbara, just as Wire Palladin mentioned that the word "alien" is in the law, so is the word "immigrant" and it is undistinguished by status. Long before there were laws excluding people, there were immigrants. Given the legislative criminalization of immigrants (especially the undocumented), the distinctions between the two become less and less meaningful.
Posted by Diego Bonesatti on 04/03/2009 @ 01:10PM PT
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My husband spent a month in CCA in AZ for illegal entry. The conditions are horrible and the people are treated as less than human. Just for us to talk on the phone for 10 minutes a day for 4 weeks was $500. It was almost a week from the time he entered CCA until he was able to get into contact with me. I called everyday to get information and talked to one incompetent person after another or some jerk on a power trip. I sent money to him there so he could buy basic items like a razor and it took them 2 weeks to give him the money and he was released before he received the items and they kept his $60. My husband still struggles with the realization that there are humans out there who have no problem treating fellow human beings like worthless animals.
Posted by Christina Lopez on 04/03/2009 @ 01:25PM PT
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Thank you for sharing your story, Christina. My husband spent 3 months in a CCA facility, as well, and it was an absolute nightmare. He was deported over a year and a half ago and we still live apart, and are facing incredible bureaucratic delays in being together again. I never knew my country could do this to me - my husband is not a criminal, not an alien - he is a human being.
Posted by Tina Shull on 04/06/2009 @ 10:30PM PT
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Tina;
Is your husband foreign-born?
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/07/2009 @ 06:42AM PT
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Lot of hateful comments, some of which I've removed. This is not the place for that.
Posted by Dave Bennion on 04/03/2009 @ 03:59PM PT
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Dave it may be hateful to tell the truth, but what I stated was "THE TRUTH" even though you might find it hateful.
Are you going to censure us for telling the truth?
Posted by Marvin Foster on 04/04/2009 @ 07:38AM PT
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(1) Putting it in all caps doesn't make it true, (2) yes, I will censure you, and (3) it's arguable whether I can censor anyone since I'm not a government official. Does a newspaper editor censor you by not printing your op-ed or letter to the editor, though it may invite your contributions? Does Bill O'Reilly censor me by not inviting me on his show?
Posted by Dave Bennion on 04/04/2009 @ 07:55AM PT
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Dave, it seems that you think it OK for people to cross our borders illegally, take American jobs, get paid "under the table", never pay taxes or Social Security into our system but yet they are able to receive more free aid than Americans that have worked here and paid their dues as required by law.
If we continue on this path, we can rename our country "Mexico" in a few years. And, you think that our prisons are crowded now, just you wait and see.
And, if you want to censure me and my opinions here, I will leave here and go to other sites that believe that our laws should be observed and enforced. Obviously you feel that it's OK to violate laws when it's to your benefit.
Are you a business owner who wants to hire cheap labor? Do you have any children that are wanting to find jobs to support a family that they may want to have and get paid a living wage?
And, about newspaper editors, it all depends whether they lean to the "left or to the right".
Posted by Marvin Foster on 04/04/2009 @ 08:29AM PT
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Most immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in benefits, most of which undocumented immigrants are not eligible for.
The only people who think we are being "Mexicanized" are Pat Buchanan and other paranoid nativists.
if you want to censure me and my opinions here, I will leave here and go to other sites that believe that our laws should be observed and enforced.
heh. All our readers are free to 'vote with their feet.'
Are you a business owner who wants to hire cheap labor? Do you have any children that are wanting to find jobs to support a family that they may want to have and get paid a living wage?
I'm an immigration attorney at a nonprofit organization, as I think it says at the top of the blog main page. I don't have kids of my own. Many of my clients are working as hard as they can to support their U.S. citizen children in the face of a government that takes their taxes while working to split up families and dampen dreams.
Posted by Dave Bennion on 04/04/2009 @ 08:43AM PT
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With 12 million illegals in this country, just how many do you think are young females having babies with absolutely no jobs and no health insurance.
And, you don't think that this a drain on our already overstretched health care system?
Just who are you trying to convince? Yourself? OR the American people?
Give me strength, Dave. In the job that I perform 5 days a week, I see more non English speaking people in a day than you do in a month and no doubt many of those are in America illegally.
Posted by Marvin Foster on 04/05/2009 @ 03:13PM PT
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Marvin,
1) look at your ancestors and tell me if all of them came here LEGALLY? (I respectfully submit they did not, unless they were Native American)
2) the fact that you see a lot of non-English speaking people in a day does not mean that "many of those are in America illegally." First, that is a just an assumption based on prejudice. Secondly, if you want to generalize, check how many people with your last name (Foster) are in prison. Because more than 2,000 Fosters are in prison, you must be a criminal too. Finally, the "people" you see everyday can speak Chinese, Spanish, French, etc. The problem is people like you, who would NEVER advance in life because of prejudices. If you do not think, I am correct, just go to Europe and see how many languages each person speaks in each European country.
P.S.: These "people" pay "social security", "medicare", and other government-mandated deductions, for which they NEVER get the benefits.
Posted by Jose Perez on 04/06/2009 @ 11:37AM PT
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Keep up the good work, Dave! A progressive website for change is no place for hate.
Posted by Tina Shull on 04/06/2009 @ 10:35PM PT
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just a question:
why don't most of you have a pic of yourself, or just a pic in general?
it would add some personalization if you at least show your face; cause you know, youl be spending alot of time here
Posted by Alex Shqipe on 04/03/2009 @ 06:04PM PT
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I spent a year living in Tijuana, Mexico with my wife and crossing the border every morning at 4am to go to work in San Diego. We were waiting for a Visa date so she could enter the USA. She was almost kidnapped in Tijuana and decided it would be safer for her to move back to Mexico City with her family. One year after our marriage we had a date for an appointment in Ciudad Juarez (which is arguably the most dangerous city in the world). I spent over $1,000 on the Visa preparation. Then I had to pay $400 for a medical exam for her and I had to pay all of the expenses of missing work and traveling from San Diego to Ciudad Juarez. Our appointment was for April 14th, 2008. The morning of our appointment we arrived in the line at about 530 am. There were hundreds of people. We finally got to the front and I was told that I couldn't enter. How appropriate. I was denied entry into my own consulate. She went in alone. Intimidated and scared even though she speaks nearly perfect English (she's an English teacher). I waited anxiously for more than 5 hours outside the consulate. She finally came out and told me that she didn't even get an interview. The lady she spoke with told her that it was too late and they had already interviewed everyone for that particular day and my wife was told that she might get another interview the next day or in a few months. As if everything we had done up to that point in time wasn't enough. So we went to the information line and spoke with the lady who, after 5 minutes of pleading, arranged another appointment date the next Friday. We had to stay 4 more days in that horrible city. Finally, Friday came and we did the same routine. Up early to stand in line. She went in alone and I waited nervously outside. 5 hours later she came out and told me that she was denied the visa and that we could reapply in 3 years. Reapply meaning; going through the same process of sending in money. We did everything correctly. She never entered the country illegally. She has no criminal record. She speaks 3 languages and is extremely bright. So now we were forced with a major decision. We could wait 3 years or we could cross her illegally. I was livid! My country denied my own wife entry into my country. The country that I have been supporting and paying taxes in for my whole life. The supposed land of opportunity denied me from starting a regular family. My wife flew back to Mexico City and I had the loneliest 14 hour drive of my life back to San Diego. 2 months later I moved to Mexico so I could be with her. I tried to contact the NVC (National Visa Center) but they told me that they can't do anything. I've tried contacting the consulate but they don't respond and you must pay per minute to speak with someone. They haven't sent back any original documents as they said they would. They never sent me any information so that I could appeal the decision.
My wife can't enter the country legally. She can't visit me or her parents' in-law. She has never met her nieces and nephews. How could you blame us if she entered the country illegally? She can't get a visa but a random person who won the green card lottery can enter without problems. Cubans can enter just by arriving on the soil. The immigration policy of this country is broken. Immigrants are what made this country great. Immigrants like my grandfather who extracted coal for 30 years or like my best friend's parents who came and opened successful businesses creating jobs and tax dollars. Even the illegal immigrants who were more than happy to do gardening for half the price and twice as fast deserve a means of legal immigration that doesn't require 5 years of ‘maybes'. Unfortunately, the immigration debate has been put on the back burner because of other, trendier, issues like gay marriage. My own Congressional Congressman Bob Filner has yet to reply to my pleas. The situation is bad and getting worse. Developing a for-profit "detention" center is only going to make the problem worse. Prisons should never be in business to make money. That's just common sense. Obama where are you on these issues? You're really disappointing me with your new priorities!
Posted by Chris DeNunzio on 04/03/2009 @ 06:27PM PT
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Chris;
Appreciate your honest heratfelt story. What about these NAFTA border crossing cards, whereby any mexican, as a NAFTA partner, can cross into the US for 24/48/72 hours , something like that? Do you know what I'm talking about.
thanks
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/04/2009 @ 07:31AM PT
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With an emphasis on the "something like that." Applicants for Border Crossing Cards must meet the same eligibility standards that apply to the B1/B2 visitor visa. Meaning Chris's wife almost certainly wouldn't qualify.
Restrictionists tend to assume it's just a matter of figuring out the law and then taking a few simple steps to rectify the situation, figuring that the only plausible explanation for cases like this is laziness or willful disobedience. It's fairly insulting.
Posted by Dave Bennion on 04/04/2009 @ 07:47AM PT
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Dave;
Thank you for clarifying the border-crossing cards (in your usually demeaning way).
Now, I don't know what type of visa Chris is applying for. What about a simple 3 month tourist visa?
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/04/2009 @ 07:47PM PT
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We don't need these so called prisons at all! The way to solve this problem is to go after the businesses that employ these illegals. Force every employer in this country to use E-Verify to determine the status of each potential new employee. Those that willfully employ illegals need to be thrown in jail and pay HUGE fines. Cut off the job magnet, cut off any access to the welfare system, and the illegals will self deport in droves. End of problem!
Posted by Stephen Benton on 04/03/2009 @ 08:38PM PT
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Yes employers are big part of the problem. We should prosecute also the racist tv channels and radio stations who only broadcast in Spanish orchestrating the movement of illegal crossing and then claim rights and benefits.
Posted by Alex Godoy on 04/03/2009 @ 11:00PM PT
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Good luck finding a legal basis for that, or convincing the DOJ to go after Univision or Telemundo. But hey, in Limbaugh-land, anything is possible!
Posted by Dave Bennion on 04/04/2009 @ 07:51AM PT
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Well Dave, that is probably the biggest problem in our core as a society. Bottom line, the guilt of this tragedy at th end is not the people crossing the border, but our burocratic deformed system based on a corrupt judicial system managed by politicians. When you say that in Limbaugh world everything is possible, well that is true, and most of Americans believe and dream with that same world back. That world, is the original foundation of this nation based on the cosntitution and the declaration of independence. If those principles were respected and defended from day number one til today, we wouldn't be dealing with this problem. And sticking to those principles, doesn't mean closing the door to immigrants. What it means, is being accountable for our own prosperity and that could have made an organized respected working immigration system.
There is people out there in this world who LOVE this nation and their biggest dream is to come here and be 100% Americans. Play for this team, score for this team. Yet, they don't have any legal path to do so. However, there are amnesty and assylum ridiculous laws that allow people who don't like this land and its people to come here and milk the system.
We are in a major trouble. I honestly don't see a clear way to fix this mess.
Posted by Alex Godoy on 04/04/2009 @ 09:23AM PT
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"There is people out there in this world who LOVE this nation and their biggest dream is to come here and be 100% Americans."
hey Alex, well its not sutch a fairy tale. Many people come here legally, they get their green card as soon as they land; some dont use their employment authorization to conduct jobs that would put money into the system; instead they work cash. Those people sometimes cannot get by and are ofered services, sutch as food stamps, health care and so on. ofcourse illegal immigrants can take advantage of it too (case by case basis) ofcourse.
Now, i dont know if you are familiar with the legal avenues someone can persue to immigrate to this country.
- The DV Lottery for example, its the easiest one, someone can lie about their education or about income,in a 3rd world country, money can buy you a diploma. Those people who are unknown to the U.S., they get their permanent residence right away.
- K1- k3 visa, now the requirments to bring a spuse or fiance; are not very hard. The couple must meet only twice within 2 years, have a wedding pics and thats it. im telling you this b.c theres people i know that used this to have sham mariages. now thats not fair for the ones who are really in love with a person. plus dont forget, relationships are tricky, often times U.S. citizens get used.
- Asylum base cases, i think that this is the hardest legal method to coming here. Ask any lawyer, this is were the big $$$ is made. often times, one judge may say yes to one case, and another may say no to the same exact case. the waiting periods are often very long, during this time, people are living in the United States, under some "probation", meaning; i dont have any documents yet, but ive been working and living here for 10 years, for that amount of time you can see who i am and what i do.
now, the reason i love this country, and many like me do.. is because i have took pain and suffering throughout all this time, i have to fight hard for what some people took for granted. its often hard to love something you dont know. but this is what i know. its the sacrifice you make, the tears you shed at night and the fear you have everyday. and in the end, its the hope that keeps you going.
when you dont know who someone is, its hard to say wether they love this country or not.
Posted by Alex Shqipe on 04/04/2009 @ 09:51AM PT
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I think the fact that they are locking these people up in these private prisons is very wrong. The problem is what we do with the people who have violated the laws of the US is a Catch 22. To simply claim they haven't violated a law is a lie. I feel bad for them, but at the same time, many people struggle to get legal immigration in the US. What do you say to those who do? The law only applies to some, but not all?
My wife is Korean and getting a green card for her is a pain in the ass. The amount of time and money it takes makes it difficult. Simply put, we have to have all our paperwork and everything in order for her to live in the US.
We need to have a serious debate about how we deal with those in the country who are not here legally and make sure people are no longer entering green cards or overstaying visas. Dealing with the former of the two is going to be the bigger issue most would agree I think.
Posted by David English on 04/04/2009 @ 12:56AM PT
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Ana Rosa, beautifully articulated insight.
Please know that the Immigration issue is also holding hands with the cancer of pay cards that strike at the very heart of the American foundation by injecting its self between the employer and the employee to become the warden of take home pay and therein wip the uneducated, the poor, the vulnerable into subbmission and thereby subvert democracy, the rule of law, and the free will of the people till they are no more than helpless children groveling for the allowance that used to be their take home pay reduced to the scraps that are left.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 04/04/2009 @ 03:38AM PT
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Ana Rosa - Matt Kelley impeccable insight
Please know that the cancers of pay cards strike at the very heart of the America’s foundation and are antithetical to our very Democracy by injecting its self between the employer and the employee to become the evil prison warden of take home pay and therein whip the uneducated, the poor, the vulnerable, the children into submission and thereby subvert democracy, the rule of law, and the free will of the people till they are no more than helpless children groveling for the allowance that used to be their take home pay reduced to the scraps and pennies that are left.
The weaponization of theft.
Is this your gift of advocacy to Vermont wage earners?
Take back the kick back of paycard theft in Vermont.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 04/04/2009 @ 03:42AM PT
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I am a lily white guy of Norweigen heritage who is also an immigration attorney. If I can help in any way let me know.
Posted by Michael Ditton on 04/04/2009 @ 06:28AM PT
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Do you work pro bono?
Can I ask a couple of candid questions about your profession?
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/04/2009 @ 07:23AM PT
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Dear Kurt Thialfad,
You bet!
My life's pleasure.
Posted by Frederic Starchenkov... on 04/04/2009 @ 07:31AM PT
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I don't think most Americans have any objections to a nice family getting their visa's and /or their American citizenships.
The thing American's do have a problem with (and mexican citizens, as previusly stated) is the lack of respect for the law. I have heard of aliens offering to buy American children or women. That is the milder side of that particular sinario. When I was first out on my own I came very close to being kidnapped, myself. It's not the nice families that do that, but they get grouped together with them.
The businesses that hire migrant workers are at fault too. My Mom told me about how she picked fruit when she was a teenager for her first job. Now a days teenagers don't do that. The reason is because the orcherdesses started hiring aliens because they can pay them less because they aren't legal citizens. It's not that Americans won't do these jobs. It's just that some businesses found a way to save money.
Posted by Lorena W. on 04/04/2009 @ 06:37AM PT
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I don't think it's lack of respect for the law that Americans don't like... its more the fear of someone different from themselves. No one now wants to do anything for anyone but themselves. It's funny now that the economy is in the dumps, because the emergence of hate groups has tripled!!! It can't be our fault... let's blame someone else!!!
As for businesses such as the orchards.... they hire immigrants because teenagers now won't do shit. Our generation is selfish... where we believe things should be handed to us.. which is a result of mommy and daddy working double time to give us the crap that they didn't have back in the day and the divorce afterwards only feeds the fire. Our generation won't do shit. We don't want to be seen working at McDonalds. We don't want to do manual labor, since, hell, we are worth more than that. Try convincing any teen to pick fruit, and I'm 100 positive they will ask you if you have been drinking. who do you think is left to do that? If you put Americans to work picking fruit and their demands for wage, our produce and all the little things that we're comfortable with, would skyrocket. What would you prefer? Having immigrants pick our fruit and pay 1.99 a lb for some yummy apples, while their tax money is cushioning our social security and medicare systems OR pay about 10.00 a lb for bruised apples, since the little brats hate their job and throw them in the baskets. We Americans are against anything illegal.... until it affects our pocketbooks.
Posted by Melissa R on 04/04/2009 @ 11:00AM PT
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I don't think it's lack of respect for the law that Americans don't like... its more the fear of someone different from themselves. No one now wants to do anything for anyone but themselves. It's funny now that the economy is in the dumps, because the emergence of hate groups has tripled!!! It can't be our fault... let's blame someone else!!!
As for businesses such as the orchards.... they hire immigrants because teenagers now won't do shit. Our generation is selfish... where we believe things should be handed to us.. which is a result of mommy and daddy working double time to give us the crap that they didn't have back in the day and the divorce afterwards only feeds the fire. Our generation won't do shit. We don't want to be seen working at McDonalds. We don't want to do manual labor, since, hell, we are worth more than that. Try convincing any teen to pick fruit, and I'm 100 positive they will ask you if you have been drinking. who do you think is left to do that? If you put Americans to work picking fruit and their demands for wage, our produce and all the little things that we're comfortable with, would skyrocket. What would you prefer? Having immigrants pick our fruit and pay 1.99 a lb for some yummy apples, while their tax money is cushioning our social security and medicare systems OR pay about 10.00 a lb for bruised apples, since the little brats hate their job and throw them in the baskets. We Americans are against anything illegal.... until it affects our pocketbooks.
Posted by Melissa R on 04/04/2009 @ 11:00AM PT
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Melissa, I do not fear someone different than myself. How ridiculous for you to make such a blanket statement. I married someone of hispanic background and I am a fair haired skinned European gal. I do not hate illegal immigrates no matter where they have originated from. This is how most of us feel who are opposed to ammensty and would like our government to close our borders and deport those who broke the law to be here. We are mostly charitable people who see our way of life threatened. I live ina community with many illegal and legal immigrants. I donate to the local charity that specializes in helping these people. I do have compassion for them and resent being called otherwise who have written so on this blog. We have 14 million immigrants who are here illegally. And yes, they take jobs from us citizens. Not only do they take these jobs, for example in the construction industry, they lower the wages of us citizens by working for less pay. The illegal who will work for less pay forces all that can work legally to work for less. All that does is make the companies and fat cat bosses richer and us workers poorer. We all deserve to make a fair wage for our hard work. This is a huge part of why many Americans and Legal workers do not live above poverty.
Aside from the worker problem of illegal aliens there is the problem of 240,000 of illegals who are sexual offenders. They each average 4 victims per year. This results in nearly 1 million sex crimes here in America due to ILLEGAL immigrants.
I welcome those from other countries who come through the front door, just not the back door.
The one thing you do have right is the attitude of our youth and young adults. They have been brainwashed to be the 'Entitlement Society'. They feel someone owes them something, like the government. We have not taught them self reliance and responsibility. Parents, the school system and government organizations are all culprits of teaching this mentality. They feel someone owes them a college education and health care. What ever happened to working for what you have? What ever happened to teaching kids that they are responsible for their own happiness? Why must this all be provided for them?
I grew up poor and I certainly didn't think someone owed me a college education. I worked my way through college. And I also earned the self respect and satisfaction to know I did it myself. When I got divorced and forced to be a single parent, I didn't expect someone to take care of me. I work hard to provide for my child with NO assistance. I don't expect someone to pay for my upkeep or my child's. I pay out of pocket for my child's health insurance because my employer does not cover spouses/children. I choose to bring her into the world, not the government. She is my responsibility not the governments.
Well, this is getting to be a rant of out of topic discussion.
The Constitution guarantees the right to Life, Liberty and Happiness. It does not guarantee equal results. You must provide your own results. I did. I grew up poor but didn't let anyone tell me I couldn't do better. I did it on my own, the government didn't help me. And I am proud of that. And I will pass this self responsiblity and self respect to my child. If we as a nation weren't so busy looking for a freebie in life and taught our children to be self relient, a lot of what our country is experiencing would improve. But we are 4 generations along in the 'Entitlement Society' and I don't see that improving any time soon. Our government is too busy giving everything away. Like welfare for life. Welfare is considered by most who receive it to be 'gainfully employed'. I am not against welfare, sometimes we need a hand up. Just not a hand out for life.
Posted by Say What? on 04/05/2009 @ 12:39PM PT
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Say What, you are so right in your comments. Our "parents" our "teachers" teach our children terrible values, less morals, the government should take care of us philosophy. Welfare is an entitlement, why should I work mentality? Take responsibnility for my actions, I don't think so, it must be someone else's fault.
Teaching right from wrong is just to much trouble for parents, just give the children another toy and they will get lost and we, as parents, can do our thing. Then they never understand just why so many young adults get married and play house until they realize that everything isn't just given to them anymore.
They not only give up very easily but they come home and bring their little offsprings back home with them for mom and dad to again take care of. Parents don't need to be able to retire anymore because they taught their children that they don't have to be responsible, just come back home and we'll continue to support you in a custom which we got you accustomed to.
Posted by Marvin Foster on 04/05/2009 @ 03:05PM PT
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Melissa, I happen to agree with you that most of those children would not pick fruit in an orchard. I do not blame the workers, the children or even the fact that they have had poor parenting. Good parenting has declined in America because moms and dads are too exhausted to give their children the quality time they need. Parents are focused on survival these days. You see, there was a time when family's lived off of one salary in a household, but over the years we have seen private industry become more greedy and cronyism take control. I remember the days in America when stores were closed on Sundays and family's were together. Later they opened on Sundays and I remember when they took overtime away for people who would volunteer to work the Sundays and made it manditory to work them. I remember when Parents sat at the table together with their children at meal time. I remember the neighbor across the street was a store manager and he raised a large family in a large ranch with 2 cars in a decent neighborhood. That really wasn't all that long ago. Today that is impossible on one salary. Now alot of the employers have schedules with shifts that alternate makeing it impossible to get education around them or even knowing a schedule in advance so you could plan your life outside your job. Over the years employers extended hours and demanded more and more from their employers. I really believe the reason why we have such a broken immigration system is so they could have their underground workforce not protected with labor laws and this weakens our family structure even more than it is today. The wage goes down even more. To them we are no different from animals. There was a time when we were just a number but without documentation there are workers with numbers and then they have their workers that are non-existent on paper (Can you imagine and we use to complain we were only just a number and now their wish is to keep an underground workforce that undocumented and disposable). What they want is complete control of a workforce to get their maximum profits. They do not care about American children...they do not care about children of the undocumented. They don't care about anyone but themselves and their profits and power of a society. They want to keep CIR from passing so that they can continue to have more of the same and cheapen the wage at our expense and their gains. They are great at lies and tricking the American public into believing it is the fault of the immigrant. That keeps their business growing. The truth is Melissa...they need to wake-up and realise the jig is up and we are on to their game.
Posted by Mary Pranzatelli on 04/05/2009 @ 07:29PM PT
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Say What, well than I commend you for your actions. You are NOT like most Americans, while I wish they would be. But also assuming that everyone American is as heartwarming and welcoming as you are would also be a ridiculous blanket.
"And yes, they take jobs from us citizens. Not only do they take these jobs, for example in the construction industry, they lower the wages of us citizens by working for less pay. The illegal who will work for less pay forces all that can work legally to work for less. "
Fortunetly for us, immigrants, illegal or not, do take these jobs... otherwise we would not be able to afford the lives we lead. Our precious daily Starbucks would def. have to stop. Think about it. If we fired every single immigrant.... and assuming your job is not at risk by immigrants so your salary would remain the same....and hired US citizens. The prices of fruit yes... would triple. Then add on your home, hotels, airlines, vacations, fast food, restaurants, landscaping, factory work including food/meat, items for home, clothing etc... If all of that tripled, would you be as comfortable as you are now? Or would the avg. American focus more on trying to spend less, thus... our increasing the problems of our current economy?
Posted by Melissa R on 04/06/2009 @ 11:07AM PT
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Why is it that just because a bunch of crooked politicians make laws, that we are supposed to blindly accept that what they say - "the law" is in any way synonymous with what is moral or even practical? The whole of the Southwest was the north half of Mexico - taken through aggressive warfare. Do we consider Hitler's occupation of Europe part of Germany? Oh yeah, they were beat back and the U.S. wasn't. Does it make the southwest any more part of a ficticious country, aggressively hijacked from ocean to ocean? The great Constitution that this "country of laws" was founded on was written by white rich men, many of them slave-owners. In fact, slavery is still "legal"according to this disgusting rag!
People need to realize that the real "criminals" wear robes and suits and figure things out from there. "Justice" in this country is a sick joke. Government is organized crime of the highest degree. Murder, extortion, kidnapping - these crimes are what we see government do every single day with impunity - with our stolen monies! The only legitimate "border" is between land and water - and you don't need a passport to go swimming (or shouldn't anyway!) People need to lose their fawning addiction to "law" and "government" and coercive authority in all its evil forms.
Am I an anarchist? Yes I am! Do I beleive in violence and chaos? Of course not! I believe people should treat each other as equals with respect - unlike the U.S. government who shoves a gun in the face of the people of the world.
Posted by Anthony Rayson on 04/04/2009 @ 07:27AM PT
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Hear hear!!
I am not an anarchist, possibly the opposite. How I got on this list to receive these emails I don’t know. Possibly because I contacted my hypocritical “representative” Pelosi.
The first and most important purpose of government is the enforcement of justice, according to the book I use as my guide, namely the Bible. The U.S. government has become a seething mass of injustice, passing laws that hurt, refusing to enforce justice in many areas, not enforcing just laws that would protect people from exploitation, with the government itself becoming one of the biggest law breaking organizations around.
I fear for my country I was born in. The colonists revolted with less justification that we have today. Obama is part of the Chicago mob, excuse me, “political machine”, so it is no surprise to see him taking out of the pockets of working people to give to his rich associates (can you say “stimulous pachage”?). Can we expect anything other from this government than a continued exploitation of workers, including illegal aliens, for profit?
Richard Ortiz
Posted by Richard Ortiz on 04/04/2009 @ 11:54AM PT
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I don't feel sorry for these illegal aliens. They have their own countries to live in.
If they didn't sneak into the U.S. they wouldn't be in jail would they?
Why do they pick on us?
Russia is losing population and *needs* immigration! The U.S. is fully settled.
I grew up very poor, I didn't sneak into foreign countries and work illegally or push drugs.
I don't think anyone "hates immigrants".
What the American People are against are the excuses that *our government* comes up with for not doing its job!
Enforcing our laws is not "optional!"
And for you lawyers in here who are supposed to be "Officers of the Court" you should be very well aware that it is a Federal Felony to enter this country other than through a legal port of entry.
And if an illegal uses the USPS to mail money back to their home countries it is "Mail Fraud", and if they use a wire service it's "Wirefraud". You can't send money through the USPS or a wire service such as Western Union that was obtained illegally.
It's just like sending drug money through the mail.
We have U.S. Citizens in prison for those very crimes, why should illegal aliens get a "pass" on crimes that Americans go to jail for?
Sorry but you're just not doing a good job at portraying these illegal aliens as "victims."
They shouldn't be in jail they should be deported.
We need to start having hearings in high school gymnasiums so that we can start processing large numbers of illegal aliens for deportation out of the country.
Again, when did it become "optional" to enforce our laws?
Posted by Thomas Porter on 04/04/2009 @ 01:00PM PT
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you should be very well aware that it is a Federal Felony to enter this country other than through a legal port of entry.
No, it's a misdemeanor, unless it's a reentry after a previous deportation.
And if an illegal uses the USPS to mail money back to their home countries it is "Mail Fraud", and if they use a wire service it's "Wirefraud". You can't send money through the USPS or a wire service such as Western Union that was obtained illegally.
Don't know where you're getting this from. I've never heard of it, but if you can point to where in the law it says this, I would be interested to know.
It's just like sending drug money through the mail.
Well, no, it's pretty much completely different.
Posted by Dave Bennion on 04/04/2009 @ 01:44PM PT
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Dave,
Isn't human trafficking a felony?
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/04/2009 @ 07:42PM PT
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I don't feel sorry for these illegal aliens. They have their own countries to live in.
If they didn't sneak into the U.S. they wouldn't be in jail would they?
Why do they pick on us?
Russia is losing population and *needs* immigration! The U.S. is fully settled
WOW.
Thank you for allowing us to steal your country. We are currently full at this moment, attending more important causes. If you would like to fill out an application to enter, you will need to wait 5-15 years to do so, but pay all the exorbitant fees in advance. If you would like information on your application, please feel free to contact anyone of our agents. These agents are not liable for any information that they dispense since they are not required to stay up to date on our policies.
Are you currently an immigrant? Would you like to change status and become legal in our system? Please head to anyone of our offices for more information. You will be detained and possibly prosecuted...but hey, you wanted to be in our system.
You were brought here as a child? You are a criminal as well. You SHOULD have protested against your parents and stayed in Mexico. You were three? No matter. You should have known better and will now be deported, regardless of having no where to go.
You were deported? Please fill out an I212. Don't forget to include your county of residence since you NEED to be in the United States for your application to be considered. Oh, it was denied? You should have read the small print on your deportation papers that said you cannot appeal. Once you leave the country, your case is closed and not up for appeal. You would have known that if you would have contacted one of our agents.
"I don't think anyone "hates immigrants"."
Really? I would have never got that assumption.
Geez.
Posted by Melissa R on 04/04/2009 @ 02:24PM PT
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how could it not be? being that every opportunity proposed for all immigrants is closed before it is fully opened and considered.
I would think if there were not so many contradictions and loopholes within the system and the process was as simple as it used to be, we would hardly have an immigration problem. But I doubt that you have ever have any personal interaction with INS. I would assume, please correct me if I'm wrong, that you've never needed any sort of assistance from DHS. I am also presuming that you and all of your family are American. The attitudes and difficulty in working with INS are not how they are presented in the media. Many are hateful, rude, and humiliate those people that need their help. Thus these specialty prisons, where they can continue to humiliate and harass the inmates... of course under the blanket of Homeland Security.
Posted by Melissa R on 04/04/2009 @ 05:42PM PT
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That's not true. I am an immigrant and when I started my process or edjustment of staus, never had any application denied. Now if you are talking about illegal aliens, that's different; they are not immigrants under the law.
INS doesn't exist anymore. It was eliminated after 9/11 when DHS was born. INS was separated in ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and USCIS, United States Citizenship and Immigration Services. Both departments are supervised by DHS. And yes, I had to deal with officers many times, and even though they look bored and frustrated with their jobs, never had a bad treatment or something. Even more, the day I went to renew my permanent resident card, the officer told me "one step closer to citizenship"; I replied "I've been dreaming with that for so many years"; He said "you'll make it. This is the best country on Earth"
I am an American now defending our laws and land til death. The system works. We have laws. It works as long as it is not abused and corrupted.
Immigration in the last decades, has been similar to take an overdose of a prescription medicine every day. That's what created all these problems. And perhaps I am part of the same disease having migrated to this nation; it is up to our laws and the American people to decide.
Posted by Alex Godoy on 04/04/2009 @ 08:15PM PT
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prisons are for criminals, but hey our pres let killers go from gitmo.i believe that immigration should be taken in all the steps the law allows.any other way is the wrong way.
Posted by harvey melton on 04/04/2009 @ 06:26PM PT
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I don't know if this has been thought before but...I don't know if anyone would have the guts as a man to publicly say this in this politicly correct ridiculous world.
What if we propose to all the govenments responsible for its citizens migrating here ilegally an exchange of people? Let's empty our jails, and spread them in equal amounts equivalent to the percentage of illegal aliens coming from each country. For example, if 45% of illegal aliens are from mexico, let's send 45% of our jail population to mexico and so on...it would be a win-win situation, because I believe most of illegal aliens are good people, but unfortunatelly under our current laws are criminals. So we would be replacing a population of 100% bad people for a population of almost 90% good people.
fair enough?
Posted by Alex Godoy on 04/04/2009 @ 10:24PM PT
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immigration is not something we need or depend on. if the system is not working, then trash it. flush it down the toilet.
Posted by Kurt Thialfad on 04/04/2009 @ 11:49PM PT
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Stalin would be so proud of us. I would be interested in learning if there is a solid correlation between our very high incarcertation rates and the use (by corporations) of low-wage prisoner labor, i.e., how many jobs have been outsourced to prison labor, average wage/how much of earnings can actually be kept by the worker vs. how much goes toward offsetting his/her stay in prison, etc.
Posted by DH Fabian on 04/05/2009 @ 08:40AM PT
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Many private immigration prisons pay $1/day to detainees for their work (usually for things like preparing food and doing laundry)... I don't know about prison labor in general, though.
Posted by Tina Shull on 04/06/2009 @ 10:54PM PT
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Here is the deal. I am all for immigration. Legal immigration. If someone wants to come to this country to better themselves that is fine, but these people that skip across the boarder and mooch off of this country without contributing in any way can go to hell. I say lock them all up and put them into forced labor camps. They aren't american citizens so they have no rights in this country. They can work off the debt that they owe the people of this country then they can be shipped back to whatever third-world hell they came from. Hopefully they will get the idea to come here through official channels next time.
Posted by dustin worthey on 04/05/2009 @ 01:16PM PT
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The post is very insightful and the reactions are telling. It seems that capitalism has no mercy. The detainment and enslavement of people for profit -- although today allowed in prisons and no longer on plantations (for the most part) -- is a nothing new.
I think that this bespeaks of many things, but two things seem transparent to me: (1) that the U.S.'s so called "free-market" is reaching a breaking point (maybe it has been for the past 50 years). The unfettered "free" trade policies and neo-colonial economic projects around the world, but specifically Latin America, which are commonly referred to as neo-liberalist policies have viciously (with the help of elite minorities in all governments) uprooted and displaced so many people that even the urban metropolises have become so dense and overcrowded that many are simply looking north incessantly. The U.S. (the citizens -- for not keeping accountability -- as well as the policy makers) are feeling the effects of a long standing practice: economic domination for political and monetary profit. This must change. Most emigrants would love nothing more than to remain in their countries if jobs and economic conditions allowed it -- regardless of the political conditions. One cant fight politics on an empty stomach -- well, for the most part! (2) American people (primarily white anglo people) are reacting to the inevitable change of America's identity (demography and culture etc.), due to the aforementioned process, with a fascist nativist tendency that astonished me. It would be amusing if it wasn't dangerous to read the typical: "I'm for legal immigration not illegal immigration" or "They don't respect the law". They seem to be euphemistically declaring: "Hi, I'm a fascist and I hate that my country's "complexion" is changing" while pretending to care about "THE" law. Take a look at the Declaration of Human Rights every once in a while.
I am a born citizen of the United States of America and I hate this place. And no, I'm not moving to another "less" free place. And no! I'm not taking anything freedoms for granted etc. etc. The truth is the only time I have enjoyed this country is when I'm not at a mall or around some stupid evangelical christian talking about a "purpose driven life." I love hanging out with immigrants (illegal mostly) from every part of the world (of any religion) talking and learning different languages and eating diverse foods etc. Anglos like to pretend like this land was not stolen land from Indigenous peoples and later Mexico (who stole from Indigenous peoples as well). Anglos have turned this country into one pathetic theme park with shopping malls and used car dealerships. The only hope for America are immigrants: African, Mexican, Latin American (in general), Middle-eastern, Chinese, Other Asian, and everything else. White people must realize this. Its for your own good!
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/05/2009 @ 10:40PM PT
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Abraham; You hate America, and your solution is to ensure the destruction of our nation. Not a nice strategy. Your hateful comments are not appreciated.
Posted by Wire Paladin on 04/06/2009 @ 09:48AM PT
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It's not "my" solution Mr. Palidan. It's my observation. I'm very sorry if you were offended by my "hate." Ironic that it was my comment that offended you enough to respond and not the other more hateful reactions. The U.S. is changing. Our nation is changing -- "legally" or not -- and I love it.
"capitalists of the West [invest] huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries." -- MLK
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/06/2009 @ 10:35AM PT
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dork.
Posted by Wire Paladin on 04/06/2009 @ 07:17PM PT
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Abraham, just what is it about our country changing that you like? If you are referring to a total demographic change through illegal immigration, I question your agenda and motives. If I were to say that I would be thrilled to see Mexico turned into a nation of anglos through the unlawful migration of white people, what would you say to that? If I were to make such a comment, I would deserve the label of racist.
Posted by Mark Lindley on 04/07/2009 @ 07:51AM PT
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Mark:
Well, besides you being a racist who denies being one and deserves to be labeled as one, I would call you an honest intellligent person. (Don't worry, many white people have been racist forever, its just that today most deny it: take a look at this http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=6822 . Here a white man says white people are "stupid and crazy").
Mark, whether you are thrilled about it or not, white people are invading Mexico and talk about "legally" and "illegally" is a matter of convenience. Migration is a fact and the push/pull factors matter more to me -- not some government law. Laws throughout history have proven many times to be racist and arbitrary.
You should read this article called "Border Invaders" by Mike Davis(http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/122537/mike_davis_on_manifest_destiny_the_sequel) which examines how "Over the last decade, the U.S. State Department estimates that the number of Americans living in Mexico has soared from 200,000 to 1 million...." Mike Davis' claims cannot be refutted by ad hominem attacks: He is a Socialist professor at Univ. California Riverside.
Here is a small exerpt of the article:
"As in the past, nativism today is bigotry as surreal caricature, reality stood on its head. The ultimate irony, however, is that there really is something that might be called a "border invasion," but the Minutemen's billboards are on the wrong side of the freeway.
The Baby-Boomers Head South
What few people -- at least, outside of Mexico -- have bothered to notice is that while all the nannies, cooks, and maids have been heading north to tend the luxury lifestyles of irate Republicans, the Gringo hordes have been rushing south to enjoy glorious budget retirements and affordable second homes under the Mexican sun."
Read it.
Why are Baby Boomers invading Mexico?
Maybe because, as 65 year old MaryBeth DiCecco explains ""It's just one mall after another (in the U.S.)," and in Mexico "The condominium is spectacular ... something like this would have cost three, four times as much over there." (http://www.globalaging.org/health/us/2009/baby.htm). The article states that "There are currently about 10 retired living communities in Mexico and experts predict that number will double in a decade after an estimated 8 million baby boomers move to the country and drive up their demand."
You see Mark you wouldn't even have to pretend.
And guess what, I'm not upset whatsoever that there are more white people in Mexico (Mexican elites are whites from Spanish and German descent) changing the "complexion" even more. What does upset me is that the cost of living goes up for regular working class mexicans (of what ever color and creed). Real estate targets people with money and the poor become again excluded from livable home. Thus, shanty towns are forced conditions.
Trust me Mark, its not disneyland. Working class and working poor Mexicans aren't thrilled to see white people come and "bring jobs" at the risk of making them homeless. It's fantasy. It's ethnocentric racism.
We need to focus on reality and get away from ignorant nativist scape-goating. Stop being idiots.
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/07/2009 @ 09:49AM PT
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can we all take a brake on eastern??
Posted by Alex Shqipe on 04/07/2009 @ 01:27PM PT
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Abraham, I am a racist based on what? Every country in the world has immigration laws including Mexico and for good reasons and for the most part they aren't racist in nature. They are in place for so many necessary reasons besides to protect the citizens of each country. This issue has nothing to do with race. We have illegals in our country from many different races.
If ango white people are invading Mexico "illegally" then they also need to get the boot. I am not a hypocrite about it.
Posted by Mark Lindley on 04/07/2009 @ 03:16PM PT
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Mark,
I only assume you are racist based on your comments here and on other postings. Claiming that "asking everyone to follow our laws has nothing to do with that" (meaning it has nothing to do with denying people human rights) is outright ignorant and dangerous.
To think western civilization has reached an end of history and evolved to an ultimate stage of morality with a "just" legal code is pathologically racist and eurocentric.
Everyone knows that some laws can be ridiculous: like the fact that in many states in the US one is restricted from oral sex, even with a spouse. Or stupid things like it being "against the law for a husband to talk to dirty in his wife's ear during sex." (1)
Yes, these are all funny and pathetic, but the dangerous part is to think that all laws -- even the ones that lead to millions of deaths and deny people of their human rights -- should always be followed has fascist and racist consequences (i.e. slave trade, internment camps, segregation etc.).
Maybe are not a racist, just ignorant. Fine. But Mark, what's wrong with America changing through a continued influx of immigrants? Are against that? If you believe that immigration laws have nothing to do with race, you must know nothing of the history and evolution of immigration laws. Your an old man, can't you remember? The history of "laws" in general have much to do with power and race, in fact. Read up. You have plenty of time left.
(1) http://www.journalism.sfsu.edu/flux/gSpot/sexLaw.html
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/07/2009 @ 08:19PM PT
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Abe;
dork.
Posted by Wire Paladin on 04/07/2009 @ 09:01PM PT
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Abraham, perhaps you should re-read my post again. Every country in the world has immigration laws and for good reasons. I won't even begin to tell you why because anyone with half a brain would know why. I am sorry that you are ignorant to that fact or refuse to accept the truth. Our country limiting legal immigration and having laws against illegal immigration has nothing to do with racism today. Nothing I have said can be construed as being a racist either. If I am racist, then every country in the world and the majority of their citizens are racists also according to how you view things.
Posted by Mark Lindley on 04/08/2009 @ 05:28AM PT
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Ok Abraham, lets look at this another way. Since according to you all our immigration laws are racist and discriminatory lets just remove all laws concerning immigration. Just throw our boarders wide open and make it so that all anybody has to do is walk into the country and they are citizens. Do you know what would happen then? First of all we would have millions of people rushing in to get a better life. This would flood the job market and destabilize our economy even further. Second, these people rushing in would not have to learn our laws and would be living by the laws of their home country. Did you know that it is still legal in some countries to marry little girls and perform female circumcision? Thirdly, with no immigration laws anybody could bring anything they wanted into this country, drugs, bombs, slaves, communicable diseases, anything. So lets look at things from your standpoint. We have millions of people flooding into the country, relying on the government for support, some of which are very ill and contagious which starts epidemics. Some of the people flooding in have in mind to hurt the people of this country and destroy the property of the country. The drug dealers are making a fortune because of they can bring any kind of narcotic in they want at cheap prices and flood our schools and playgrounds with the stuff. Also the crime rates have gone up because of the differences in national laws, suddenly we don't have enough prison space and rapists and mass murderers are being put back out on the street because we don't have enough room for them. Basically because you say that the immigration laws are all racist then what you are proposing is anarchy. Pure and unadulterated chaos. Thanks alot Abraham for destroying my way of life and killing everyone that I love, really appreciate it dude, but at least the immigration laws can't be seen as racist in any way now.
Posted by dustin worthey on 04/08/2009 @ 09:46AM PT
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I do not propose that at all, but if that happened, then maybe the U.S. would feel the consequences to the greed and destruction it has caused around the "third" world abroad and at home: including poor working class white people. Read up on economic foreign policy. Its clear why people move to "industrialized", and now "de-industrializing" nations: People follow capital. Free flow of capital = free flow of labor. The U.S. and other "first" world nation states want free flow of capital and close free flow of labor. Adam Smith explains this economic law thoroughly in his book "The Wealth of Nations". Immigration laws try to curb this force. Not gonna work. Since most "first" worlds, if not all, are white nations. Thus, excludes poor people of color, which means racism -- intended or not. I hope you can follow my logic.
Anarchy, I wish. Anarchism would be more appropriate now than ever. I don't mean "chaos" as you use it, but the theory as described by thinkers such as Mikhial Bakunin, Proudhon and Pjoter Kropotkin and the like.
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/08/2009 @ 09:06PM PT
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Heck, I'm a racist and a nudist. Doesn't stop me from commenting on this here blog.
Posted by Wire Paladin on 04/08/2009 @ 11:40AM PT
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I respect honesty.
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/08/2009 @ 09:07PM PT
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Abraham, you have to look at this as part of mother nature. It is simple natural selection. American people, and perhaps Canadians too, have been way smarter through history that other countries in the American continent. In fact, mexico has a pretty civilized life, still stone age but anyways, the civilized life they enjoy is thanks to the United States. Have Mexicans invented something through history? other than Pancho Villa who was a criminal? I doubt. Said that, The United States has its own identity. Not ALL its citizens think the same way, but trhe majority. If you don't like it, you are free to express it; however, good luck fighting against it. In my case, I fight til death to protect the values and identity of this nation. If we are able to control illegal aliens and mexico is not able to control Americanization, that is clear proof that the stronger wins in mother nature. I find your comments honestly exdtremely ignorant, but still, you are free to express under our constitution. Even more, you can express through this wonderful called Internet, invented by who? you guessed it. The United States. In the meantime, I stay here enforcing laws as part of my duty as a citizen.
Posted by Alex Godoy on 04/08/2009 @ 01:15PM PT
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Hot diggity dang! I respect honesty, even if its hideously stupid -- hilarious -- but stupid. Thanks for the laugh Alex. :P
Posted by Abraham Ramirez on 04/08/2009 @ 09:11PM PT
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Blah, Blah, Blah. Does anyone have any idea how to stop this? I know everyone's got an opinion. Like their rear ends. But you know what? This is slavery. I don't care what you say. IT IS SLAVERY. How about just deporting people? Or just making people automatic citizens? Or imposing fines to waive the need for a visa? There's absolutely no sense in making people work for free while someone else makes a profit. If this is what we're all about, we are soooo going to Hell! I got an idea. I'm an Indian girl, who happens to be married to an undocumented man. I had the idea of dressing in feathers and going to the local courthouse and just shooting flaming arrows with my bow. Naw, seriously, we could just wear signs that depicts pictures of "Sitting Bull" "Tsali" and "Sequoyah" and "Crazy Horse" and say we the people, we are brothers. Besides, who drew the border?
Posted by J Ceballos on 04/09/2009 @ 12:20PM PT
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From what I've read, wow, people, a lot of you sound just like our bipartisan government. If it's not what I say, then it's wrong! A lot of you, instead of trying to work together and have a solution, which, instead of being stubborn, and calling each other "ignorant, racist," etc., let's try to come up with something that might work?
I am against these prisons, I think eventually they just won't house immigrants, and the way our country is going, I'm a little afraid.
One solution is to write your President, congressmen, and senators. Find out where they stand on issues. That's when people are ignorant, not finding out and not doing something about it. I do on every issue that I feel strongly about. I have written to them stating private prisons are wrong.
I hope you do, too. Another solution is to vote. I hope all US citizens do (which I know you don't).
They DO pay attention if there is enough noise.
And I do believe illegals should be deported immediately (unless certain complications, family members that were born here, etc., and in these cases, get a hearing ASAP). I mean we're paying more money (our taxes) incarcerating people, right? We're the ones footing the bill!
Tell the powers that be we won't put up with it. Before it's too late.
And I don't mean to offend anyone, but stop the name-calling. It isn't a sign of an educated person. Especially the generalization everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist. It's old already.
Posted by sunny chapman on 04/10/2009 @ 09:13AM PT
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P.S.
I forgot to say, tell your representatives (and President) to enforce the laws to put fines on the employer's for hiring illegals, and jail time for repeat offenders (wouldn't it be ironic if they were placed in Private Prisons!). If Perdue or Tyson's is in your state (stong lobbists), or if you know of any other corporation that is exploiting people for profit, let them know. If there is a raid on any corporation or company that hauls away illegals, demand that the owners, supervisors, etc. be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Hit 'em where it hurts, in their pockets! Greed is too much out of hand!
Posted by sunny chapman on 04/10/2009 @ 09:31AM PT
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I say give them 3 years prison period!!!! That will take the financial incentive away and stop them from stealing jobs from americans.
Posted by bruce hoffman on 04/11/2009 @ 01:12PM PT
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