me too

The reference Mark is referring to is th above story of the "Another citizen has been caught up in the deportation and removal machine.  The cases we hear about are the ones that get straightened out ... we never hear about all those that don't."

Now, if you had read the article you would have found out that the "American Citizen" in question is 21 years of age. From page 2 of the article of 4 pages:

Agents in the Palomo case made decisions based on the facts they had and followed procedure, said agency spokesman Temple Black.

Ancestors born in U.S.

Almost everyone involved in the case agrees the facts of Palomo's case weren't simple.

Palomo was born in Mexico but inherited his U.S. citizenship through a little-known concept called "citizenship by derivation." Palomo's great-great-grandfather was born in 1887 in Arizona but spent his life on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border, working, attending school, seeking medical care, paying taxes and attending births and weddings — activities documented in one country or the other.

Generations later, Palomo's Mexican-born mother, Martha Sonia Palomo, was doing the same thing. Her U.S. citizenship came through her parents and grandparents, but she never got the identification to prove it.

In the mid-1990s, Palomo was playing outside with some cousins in Tucson, Ariz., when officers detained the children on the suspicion that they were in the country illegally. They detained his aunts and uncles when they tried to claim their children.

Palomo was released to his mother, who didn't comply with a deportation order issued on her son.

In 1997, she moved her family to Nashville in search of better-paying work. The risks of not having papers were a source of constant stress — she hired a local attorney to prove her citizenship. Once that happened, her children could prove theirs.

I'm getting tired of trying to engage some of you in good faith. 

The title refers to *one* of the news items.  There are five items I posted about.  If I put five items in the title, it would make no sense.  Was I claiming, by using the title "Kids in Jail," that Sonia Sotomayor was a detained immigrant child?  No, I was referring to the trailer for the movie on that subject that is at the top of the post.  It's hard to avoid the conclusion that either you're just not paying attention, or that you're trying to mislead and divert. 

So, please try to pay attention, and try not to intentionally mislead people.  Then the other commenters will respect you more.

As far as the deported citizen who didn't comply with an earlier deportation order--he was a citizen!  Would you comply with a deportation order if you got one?  I wouldn't, but maybe that's just me.  

The point Dave, was that the mother had ampel oppertunity to get her and her sons documentation in order. She chose not to. She was a Mexican Citizen claiming American Citizenship through Derevation. Her son, Palomo would also use the claim.

To sit their and claim he was an American Citizen and was deported due to a bad system is disingenous simply because had his mother done what she should have done years ago (when he was a child in the 1990's, In the mid-1990s, Palomo was playing outside with some cousins in Tucson, Ariz., when officers detained the children on the suspicion that they were in the country illegally. They detained his aunts and uncles when they tried to claim their children.) this never would have happened.

You ask, Would I comply with a deportation order if I got one?? I would take care of it, I would present my case and my documentation, I would accept the personal responsibility for myself and my children.

No, your point was that I had claimed Palomo is a child when I had not. 

As far as what you think this mother should have done, it's not easy dealing with the immigration bureaucracy, especially when you can't get an affordable attorney and immigration enforcement and immigration judges believe you are lying because of your accent and the color of your skin.  But you, as a Latina mother, would have just marched up to the INS that had just rounded up and tried to deport your son and most of your extended family and straightened things out.  Ok.

Your comment followed up on Mark's comment:

The so-called "child" in question here is 21 years old.   One is an adult at 18 years old so that particular person was not a child.

Then you said:

Now, if you had read the article you would have found out that the "American Citizen" in question is 21 years of age.

You and Mark took issue with the supposed characterization of Palomo as a child from the title of this blog post.  Now you're pretending you didn't.  It's all right there in comments for anyone to read.

Citizenship isn't "obtained" by derivation, citizenship is derived automatically if the conditions prescribed by the INA are met.  Just like John McCain wasn't born in the U.S. but nor did he "obtain" his citizenship through some process that his parents went through. Derivation can be proven in proceedings, but in a case like this, ICE would simply reinstate the old deportation order and deport him without seeing a judge.  Then you are depending on ICE to understand and correctly apply the law when in their own records there is an old deport order.  That is where the problem lay:

Palomo's attorneys say their firm had proof that the deputies refused to consider - including the great-great-grandfather's birth certificate and Palomo's birth certificate.

"I'm not sure we can expect local law enforcement to understand the full range of citizenship and all of its complexities, but Immigration and Customs Enforcement, those officers should be able to look at the documents being presented and say, yes, he is a citizen," attorney Linda Rose said.

This only got straightened out because Palomo's mother was able to pay for an attorney, and even then it took awhile.  ICE officers frequently misunderstand and misapply the INA--they cannot be trusted to act in the interests of people in their custody, even when those people are U.S. citizens.  That is what we feel is problematic.

Anyway, I still can't figure out why you are trolling around these threads wasting my time and your own.

My comment followed up on Marks comment, simply because you deleted my first comments to his first comment. (Dave, this was indeed was an unfortunate situation.   Reading the article it stated that he is 21 years old and was born here.   He hadn't been in Mexico since he was 5 years old.    I guess I will have to assume that he was there as a visitor then.  

My question would be at 21 years old wouldn't he at least have had a valid DL?   I would like to know more of the details of this story.   Like on what basis was there for a deportation and removal process.    We don't just round up every "brown" person and deport them just for the heck of it.   I remember a few cases of mistaken identity where a citizen was deported because of that error.   Perhaps this situation was the same?    The devil is in the details you know.

Posted by Mark Lindley on 06/11/2009 @ 07:42AM PT)

I took issue with Another citizen has been caught up in the deportation and removal machine.  The cases we hear about are the ones that get straightened out ... we never hear about all those that don't. for the reasons I have stated. Your assumptions abound, I'm not pretending anything.

As for John McCain...a Natural Born Citizen, his citizeship was acquired.

As a congressional act stated in 1790:

Congress: "And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."

Palormo's situation:

Unlike Acquisition of Citizenship (John McCain above), Derivation of Citizenship does not occur on the date of the birth of the foreign born child.  It requires careful planning to comply with the Child Citizenship Act.  The requirements cannot be met if the foreign born child ages out or marries before all of the conditions are met.  The child must have a green card before the parent naturalizes. 

If all the requirements are met, naturalization of the parent can grant the child the same benefits as if the child naturalized.  In order to have proof of citizenship, the child should apply for a US passport and a certificate of citizenship.

Here's a good case to base it on:

http://www.shusterman.com/olsen2.html

As for ICE officers misunderstanding and misappling the law, they follwed the mandated procedures and those results are what Palormo was cited for, I suggest you contact Napalitano to have her instructions changed to suit your ideals.

Palormo's case is very intricate, and no doubt very complex. The basic point is that his mother never did anything in order to prove her or even his status. As you said, she couldn't afford a lawyer. ICE followed the instructions as laid out by DHS.

You are blaming ICE, DHS, and everyone you can point a finger at, except the mother for not obtaining the required documentation to prove who they are. Maybe you and/or your fellow brethren as attorneys should give your services for free, then Mrs. Palormo would not have had to wory about paying a lawyer.

Now I'm not so sure whether Palomo acquired or derived his citizenship.  The article uses the term "derivation" but also says he was a citizen from birth, which would indicate acquisition, like McCain.  If Palomo's mother got her citizenship from her parents, she might have acquired it as well. 

You are blaming ICE, DHS, and everyone you can point a finger at, except the mother for not obtaining the required documentation to prove who they are.

I'm not saying the mother is faultless.  I'm saying the government should treat its citizens better and assist them with this process rather than throwing up roadblocks as they do.  You persistently refuse to acknowledge problems with the policies and procedures of DHS, despite ample evidence of serious concerns.

Maybe you and/or your fellow brethren as attorneys should give your services for free, then Mrs. Palormo would not have had to wory about paying a lawyer.

I work at a nonprofit ... I'm not sure what else you'd like me to do.

what i'd like you to do is tell me how many illegal immigrants live next to you or how many are in your neighborhood.

My clients are mostly undocumented.  What I do, if I'm successful, is help them get into legal status so they can fully participate in the communities in which they live, in the city I live in.  I sit across from them every day in my office, I go with them to court.  I see how hard they work, how they are dedicated to their families and to making a better future for their children.  They don't frighten me.  I want them to live in my neighborhood, and I want to live in a place that welcomes immigrants. 

South Philly has a growing Mexican community and an established Vietnamese one, West Africans in West Philly, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans just north and east of where I live.  Until last year, I lived in Brooklyn in a largely Caribbean neighborhood.  Immigrants have been good for Philly and New York, and those cities are usually--though not always--good to their immigrant communities. 

If you could tell me the fundamental category difference between my clients the day before they get their green cards when they are undocumented and the day after when they are on track for citizenship, I would like to know, because I have never been able to figure it out.

(what i'd like you to do is tell me how many illegal immigrants live next to you or how many are in your neighborhood.)

Hilary, all different types of immigrants live all over the states. The main street area of the town I reside next to is an immigrant community and I love that town. They reside in an area that is determined a flood section and they maintain that area. If it wasn't for them it would be a ghost town because no one else would live there. The neighborhood does not have crime and the restaurants and businesses are places people like to go out to. I can walk down those streets 2 am in the morning without fear. They reside in the town that my great grandparents settle in many years ago. Years back my great grandmother owned a candystore and she sold bags of candy to children for a penny and this town was an Italian immigrant town. Today immigrants face the same rhetoric they did back in the day that Italians did. I see these people that reside there today no different then I see my great grandmother and the struggles that she went through. I was a judge in the Halloween parade and when I see these Hispanic immigrants and their children I show them the same respect as I would want to show my Great Grandparents if they were alive. I so wish that in the Heavens above my great grandmother could see that her grandson was the first Italian elected town council of that town. It is something that she could only imagine in her wildest dreams.

I know a town were a councilman wanted to through out the immigrants. He was not re-elected. He lost his seat.