He was asking: after playing the song and video simultaneously, "do you still just hear, a song?"

(On your part, I think his video was lost in translation.)

Mr. Bennion, I think many images were taken out of context, I get it though.

There are many worse/comparable videos on You Tube, this one was actually mild.

I don't believe our Country has a blind spot, we all see the hate in the U.S. and the rest of the world. The problem is: Our Country is a Democracy, that was founded on Capitalism. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor, was never part of our policies; only since the 60's has this become protocol. Our rich hold public office, sign the bills, and make the laws. They are untouchable, and refuse to let any more of their money be spent on people that aren't going to benefit them financially. That is why the middle class is being wiped out, and the poor are even poorer. While we are in the Middle East, trying to shove Democracy down the throats of people that vehemently oppose it, our Country's Government is becoming Totalitarian.

This video is a good metaphor, for America's future, because this is where we are headed.

You I like.  Maybe  the only slightly left of center person commenting in this blog besides me.  AND  I think I can count on you not having dug in your heals with respect to me, because you don’t know who the heck I am.   Am I right?

Please this is important (ana lisa please observe).   I’ve been to Mexico 4 times and never want to go back again.  I visited my friend Beto Mendoza-  he used to live with us; his status while he was here- “undocumented.”   What a shame someone like me wouldn’t want to go back there again and spend my US dollars.  Anyway please go to this other story using the link and catch up.  There’s other stories just like it, only they have dozens of threads, but you can find me, mark and Dave (I guess) on this one with just a few comments so far, so it simplifies things..

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/take_three_steps_to_stop_alonsos_deportation  

and please sir (or madame) please go to my web site http://www.steinforgovernor.com/Come_Fly_With__Me.html  and skim it over.  Then I would ask you to comment. What about – immediate driver’s licenses for our “guests,” who then- in gratitude to us-  boycott their native country  by not sending home remittances; and  the rest of us holding back as well and not visiting the one safe resort, Cancun (never there myself, but you know the Mexican gov’t built that resort away from the poverty, and explicitly for Americans).  This unprecedented act causing Mexico to get so nervous they respond DIRECTLY TO ME and begin arresting the corrupt politicians and cops in the area where my friend Beto Mendoza Ponce lives.  Continuing, people slightly left of the hard liner Mark, get on board the amnesty train, because part of my 4 or 5 step program- calls for securing the border- and making sure we never get in this situation again- with 12 to 20 million people wandering around our country, not accounted for.

Finally, as I alluded to earlier, in gratitude for the sacrifice the illegal Mexicans made, we give everyone, as in everyone, amnesty.  Gee wiz, wouldn’t  all the other ethnic groups be forever grateful to the Mexican community for standing up and being counted on when schm*cko for Governor had such a great idea to break the gridlock.

 And finally this…………..if it didn’t work, then it didn’t work.  We would have tried and failed- so what- we failed- big deal, now let’s give amnesty anyway because they tried, their relatives back home tried, we all tried- end of story.   Next year Obama is going to be real original in his reform package i.e, give amnesty with nothing in return, cross your fingers and hope Mexico doesn’t implode. GET THAT MARK AND DAVE!   Hope Mexico does not implode!

Who is Eve Cassidy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5KQ2leZcI4   Hey Dave! just had a thought?  I’ve got to look up Caesar Chavez!   You know lettuce, migrants, strikes, boycotts……maybe you’re too young.  I was too (barely) but  I remember.  Blacks remember too ( I think)  you know Martin Luther King-  oh crap, I’m drawing a blank, what’s her name, she just died last year?  Wouldn’t give up her seat on the bus………Rosa Parks.  Bunch of wimps around here!  (sorry, just trying to draw you out Dave.  I add to this conversation, you know it and I know it.  You’re no wimp)

Our rich hold public office, sign the bills, and make the laws. They are untouchable, and refuse to let any more of their money be spent on people that aren't going to benefit them financially. That is why the middle class is being wiped out, and the poor are even poorer. While we are in the Middle East, trying to shove Democracy down the throats of people that vehemently oppose it, our Country's Government is becoming Totalitarian.

This video is a good metaphor, for America's future, because this is where we are headed.

I agree with you in part, LS (the quote above).  But I would say that the wealthier nations have made it a practice to take from the poor and give to the rich.  We regularly rob other countries of their resources, impose trade policies to our advantage, and structural adjustment programs that force them to cut social services and create zones favorable to transnational corporations. Do you know what a structural adjustment program is?  I hope so.  If not, please find out.

Constitution should be capitalized (no disrespect intended. I type very fast, so I'm prone to errors).

Yes Lisa, people do rationalize what they do in life. They believe they are doing the right thing and it really has alot to do with the way you were raised. In our country people forget that when we go to war and drop a bomb that innocent people die in that war. They justify war and rationalize it. I never could understand how some people are hard core on the pro-life issue but at the same time have no sympathy for that child that was killed in a war. It is like they are numb or prefer to deny that death has occurred. One of my best friends is very religious and pro-life as well and she has sympathy all the way. She does not believe in war and she is pro-immigration. Although I am very liberal and I do not agree with her politically I have ridiculous amounts of respect for her because she is not a hipocrit in anyway or form.

The Lyrics to this song:

When all soldiers lay their weapons down,
Or when all kings and all queens relinquish their crown,
Or when the only true messiah rescues us from ourselves...
Its easy to imagine there will be
Sorrow.
Yeah there will be
Sorrow .
And there will be
Sorrow, no more.

It is easy to imagine there will be no more sorry...seems to be the line that moves me most in these lyrics.

To me this means that it is easy to imagine no emotion because the world is so numb that they cannot even feel anymore. It is easy to imagine that we would not need to feel sorrow if the true Messiah was to come and remove horror because everyday we live on without the emotion sorrow because we justify the horror. Our "rational" removes the guilt and takes away the emotion and makes us numb.

was just thinking about you when i told either Reigns or Mark in this story, or the one about Kennedy, about an old thread where I mentioned immigrants reviving dying towns in Jersey.  you agreed. 

waiting for reigns to reply once more before I pack in the campaign for the night.  was just watching an old clip on you tube to kill the time

this is called method writing, like in method acting. i give a running description of everything I'm doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdpEyxS0988

Great comment, Mary! I like your interpretation of the song. I hadn't thought of that.  But I agree -- we rationalize our complicity in all the suffering in the world in order to numb ourselves to the horror. It also serves to numb our awareness and sense of guilt. 

I did hear someone say once that our minds block information as a way to protect ourselves when we cannot deal with certain issues. Did you ever notice when you tell nice people about the reality of the current broken immigration system and how Immigrants are being abused in detention and how familys are being split up "including fathers and mothers being deported that are married to US citizens with children" that you have to repeat the information over and over a few times till it all sinks in and I see a reaction of shock, disbelief and it seems to me like people do want to block that out of their minds. Most people just can't believe our Immigration system could be that broken and crazy to take away the wife and split the family up of US war veterans from Iraq. Could you imagine that!! Taking away the wife of a war veteran that served our country!! How sick is that. The thoughts we grew up with were "this is the US and we would never treat people like that here...they only do that in other countrys"!!?? and then with enough conversation the reality starts to sink in. I always think the strangest thing is that the majority of Americans just think that you can go ahead and Marry someone and they have automatic citizenship afterwards. They actually think that they familys are safe and that something horrible would never happen to them. Its just all a lack of information we have out there that keeps the system so ugly and unfair to people. Anyway, it probably is the human mind rejecting ugly thoughts combined with guilt and then their is that other category of people that are just spoiled and full of greed. "As long as it doesn't effect me"..attitude or "I am holier than thou".

Music...lyrics...pop culture can take away that mental block and guilt. When we hear a song over and over again we are inspired by its message. This can be a powerful tool for political issues.

Just curious. Do you ever bother to read the blogs on this site?

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/detention_torture_and_due_process

lol...Is he capable of reading the blogs?

Mark, I’m going to baffle you, and get this, me.  Stein for Governor is totally unscripted.  When we moved to our current home and I’d go out the huge building out back where I could have as many cars under cover that I could ever handle, I used to think wow, this place is mine forever.   As I’ve gotten older, you realize you’re at your present location temporarily, (just like the WW2 amputee  and wife that owned it before us.)  Looking back 200 years from now will the case that  white, Eurupeans made for ownership of the land seem so written in stone?   I mean there where native Americans here before us, much of the early work was done by slaves, and we stole a good chunk of the western half of the country from, do I dare say, Mexico.  Just a thought;  I’m always preaching that nothing is ever black and white, that’s all.

the spelling, it's awful, sorry.  just came back and re-read.

I'll ask you the same question as was asked to the all mighty Robb Pearson that he never once answered.

What is either immoral or amoral about our immigration laws?

The nativist ethos is clearly rooted in fear and a scarcity consciousness which can only doom the human race in the long run.

Now I'm going to disagree with you here. As I've been labeled by your group as a nativist, I don't think my ethos is rooted in fear it is rooted in I don't want illegals as my neighbors because they bring down my neighborhood.  Chicken fighting, loud Banda music, elloteros screaming that they are selling corn all day long and a cars on cement blocks is what I fear in my neighborhood.  You can say all day long that it is my ignorace that is the problem. I'm not a bad person for not voing to import mass poverty.  I'm not against you and yours. im just for me and mine.  I hope  they treat you decently when they show you to the door. 

So, you ask what is wrong/immoral about our immigration laws. And you claim you're for the "rule of law" right?  Pray tell, where were you when the Bush/Cheney was institutionalizing torture and tarnishing our good name around the world? Do tell. Oh, and did you speak out when Bush was cheerfully shredding the U.S. Constitution or ramming NAFTA down the Mexico’s throat? Nope, guess not. Say, have you bothered to notice what's was happening to the Bill of Rights? The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments to the Constitution...Poof...Gone! Out the window, without so much as a peep from your side!  How about when the Bushies decided to dispense with habeas corpus, a tradition going all the way back to the Magna Carta? Now, there's a rule of law with a long and venerable tradition. And where were/are you to raise your voice in protest? No matter...we now have indefinite detention for asylum seekers, so people who have already been deeply traumatized now have the privilege of getting screwed over twice. Funny…the silence from your side is deafening.

Oh well, I suppose you would arrest a hungry man for stealing a loaf of bread a la Inspector Javert of Les Miserables, or just for the mere fact that s/he happens to be undocumented.  But you with your cold legalism could conveniently overlook a massive assault on the Constitution (you know, the highest law of the land?). And you would happily dispense with due process rights for undocumented migrants, even though the Constitution clearly states that it applies to ALL PERSONS. (Sorry, that's what it says, dude.) I'm afraid your "rule of law" act is wearing a bit thin over here. You might want to take it to ALIPAC where there are folks foolish enough to buy it.  I, for one, am good and tired of your disingenuous diatribes against nannies, gardeners and other hardworking migrants and, oh, what wicked "criminals" they are! Sorry, we're just not buying that brand of snakeskin oil, if you haven't noticed.

Hilary, I hear Scandinavia is nice...no bothersome brown-skinned people there.

Note: by "your side" I am referring to restrictionists, not conservatives per se.

Pray tell, where were you when the Bush/Cheney was institutionalizing torture and tarnishing our good name around the world?

Isn't that better than being the laughing butt of all jokes that we are now around the world due to Obama? Your opinion vs mine.

did you speak out when Bush was cheerfully shredding the U.S. Constitution or ramming NAFTA down the Mexico’s throat?

Funny, but I distinctly remember Obama and many Dems voting "yes" to those bills. Wasn't it Clinton who signed the NAFTA deal? In fact NAFTA has been very good for Mexico just ask Mexico.

The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments to the Constitution...Poof...Gone!

Gone? Since when do "Illegal Immigrants" get Constitutional Rights? Besides, it is the Constitution of Human Rights that they fall under, not the US Constitution.

the silence from your side is deafening.

According to the "rule of law" they are being treated no differently than they have for over a hundred years. Why would I speak against something in which I agree with?

But you with your cold legalism could conveniently overlook a massive assault on the Constitution (you know, the highest law of the land?)

What was the "cold legalism" overlooked? What massive assault on the constitution in regards to "Illegal immigrants"?

And you would happily dispense with due process rights for undocumented migrants, even though the Constitution clearly states that it applies to ALL PERSONS. (Sorry, that's what it says, dude.)

"Illegal Immigrants" do not have "due process rights" unless they are charged with an infamous crime. As for the US Constitution, maybe you should read the preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Something about to ourselves and our Posterity that limits it to US Citizens and or "legal" residents. Sorry, that's just what it says betty.

I'm afraid your "rule of law" act is wearing a bit thin over here.

Act? Funny, I have recited the "rule of law" to a "T", and all you can do is chastise me for your ignorance?

What about sex-offenders?  Do you believe they have the right to live where they please, and not be subject to harassment and persecution?

Are you channeling the bunny or your Wire persona?  Either way, your non sequiturs are  amusing. 

Having immigration laws does not equate to not treating humans with dignity and respect.

Did I make that statement?  Obviously, it depends on the kind of laws you have in place.  I gave examples of indefinite detention, lack of due process, torture, etc.  Were you listening?

Wire suggested the term Reductionist. I think I like it -- I do!  It says so much about your world view and the style of your argument.

Reductionism: The philosophy that any complex issue can be reduced to the most simplistic terms or principles (rule of law, etc.), and then muddied through a misleading and morally bankrupt equation (i.e. undocumented immigrant = criminal).

So, hereforth, you shall be known as Reductionists!  And it was your choice, so hopefully this will put an end to all the whining and hand-wringing by the BWD's...err, reductionists. ;-)

Hilary said...Chicken fighting, loud Banda music, elloteros screaming that they are selling corn all day long and a cars on cement blocks is what I fear...

I'm afraid I don't buy it.  But, at least, Hilary is up  front about her racism -- I'll give her that.

Im glad you highlighted that Ana Lisa. Chicken fighting...lol...What is Hilary talking about??? I do not see any of this happening in our immigrant neighborhoods where I live. I remember last Halloween the kids looked really cute all dressed up and then I served them cookies and juice after the winner was chosen for the best costume. There wasn't any loud Banda music that day. I think they played the Monster Match and Warren Zevon's Werewolves of London....and selling corn and all day long cars on cement blocks. What is she talking about????? Sounds like Hilary has a really huge imagination of what an Immigrant neighborhood is.

"It is clear to most sane people that the Constitution was written for American citizens, not foreigners.  When it refers to "ALL" persons it wasn't meant to be taken in the literal sense.    It was referring to ALL Americans regardless of race, relgion or creed."

You need to back that statement up.  Show me the case law where it says that. Then we'll let Dave decide (I'm not an immigration lawyer or judge).

You need to back that statement up.  Show me the case law where it says that

Don't need case law, only need the US Constitution's preamble, you know, the reason the Constitution was written to begin with:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Something about to ourselves and our Posterity that limits it to US Citizens and or "legal" residents.

Case Law:

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905)

I was hoping Dave could weigh in on this, but I think he's probably occupied with more important things.  That case was decided in 1905 and I'm not sure it's still valid law (I don't have Westlaw, Lexis Nexis or access to a law library and it probably wouldn't help if I did).  As far as I can tell, the case is not even on point.  But again, I'm not a lawyer.  I know you have some lawyer who feeds you these cases, but neither you nor I know how to properly interpret them.  Immigration law is one of the most complex areas of law so I suggest we leave it to the experts.  The  Supreme Court is the final arbiter in interpretating the Constitution, so it doesn't help you to cite the preamble to the Constitution.

The Supreme Court has often referred to it as evidence of the origin, scope, and purpose of the Constitution.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905)

The year has nothing to do with it other than recognizing its findings above.

The  Supreme Court is the final arbiter in interpretating the Constitution

Yes they are, so please show me a case in which was decided in favor of the violation of immigration laws. Show any case in which Illegal Immigrants have been granted Civil Liberties, which is what the Constitution and Bill of Rights grants, what you are referring to are Civil Rights, which are granted by certain legally-protected characteristics of civil law and what the UN Charter of Human Rights falls under.

More on point:

The fundamental constitutional protections of due process and equal protection embodied in our Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to every "person" and are not limited to citizens. The framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as well as the authors and ratifiers of post-Civil War amendments, all understood the essential importance of protecting non-citizens against governmental abuse and discrimination.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/34989res20080423.html

Debunked already above: the preamble of the US Constitution!

And yet your ACLU link admits this in just the next paragraph after yours:

Our nation has unquestioned authority to control its borders and to regulate immigration. But we must exercise the awesome power to exclude or deport immigrants consistent with the rule of law, the fundamental norms of humanity and the requirements of the Constitution.

The ACLU does make the distinction between an "Immigrant" and an "Illegal Entrant or Visa Violator", maybe you should attempt to do the same!

Yeah, I understand...ignorance is bliss.

I'm going over all the e-mails and I must say mark makes some valid points.  Jean Kirkpatrick, my heroes UN ambassador, called it blaming America first.

Hmmm...you mean like the folks this neighborhood?:

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/hate_crime_victim_julio_maldonado_wrongfully_convicted_now_being_deported

Or this one?:

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/another_anti-immigrant_attack_ends_in_tragedy

How about this?:

http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/demonization_of_the_other_breaking_the_social_contract

Great comment, Gary!  On topic and on point. You're an intelligent man, although I don't always agree with you.

we stole a good chunk of the western half of the country from, do I dare say, Mexico.

You need to clarify this statement, Gary. I would like for you to explain how the USA "stole" a good chunk of the west from Mexico.

Just walked in the door Liquids, what's the first thing I do, that's right- log on.  2nd thing was throw something in the oven.  So my tentative answer is to scratch my head and try to remember my history, the part about manifest destiny and a manufactured war ( i thought) against a pretty defenseless Mexico.  I'll look it up after I have my slice of pizza.

Thank you Mark.  I won't say for the "history lesson" because I was only waxing philosophical.  But there is some truth to what I was saying,  our generation looks a lot different and thinks a lot different then the ones to come and 200 years from now this discussion we're having now might be a footnote in the back of the history books.  Give in a little, and watch as "something" comes over you maybe.

Thanks Mark, maybe fellow bloggers can appreciate this.  I was upstairs showering after the banning and I thought, no not again, and i ran downstairs because i forgot to copy a few of my comments as proof I sometimes gave as good as I got, and sure enough several of my comments and the original thread are gone.  Most of the comments are still there, but if another person wants to pull his comment he uses what's called a bloody "donut" for petes sake, and poof it's gone.  I got back downstairs too late, really let the one guy have it.  Off course any  ridiculing of me stays.  I knew it going in, I'm not stupid, knew my conservative slant would be apparent so i was up front about the previous banning, I advertised it.  It's different over there, you get to write a story, or a diary as they call it.  In other words, I'm doing what Daves doing above, except that they post hundreds of diaries a day by the peons.  The front page actually is reserved for the equivalent of the Dave Benions.   It would make a good story how I originally got banned, this wasn't the first time.

In two sentences.  In the middle of that whole mess that first time, I went back and found one woman who attacked me, saying in another story where I wasn't involved, that she hated her father almost as much as she hated Dick Cheney.  And that was 5 months after Cheney left office.  need i say more?

Your last comment is exactly why Dave should not worry so much about the threads wandering!  That biographical detail of yours never would have come out otherwise.  My father-in law served 2 tours in Vietnam, one combat.  My father was severely wounded on a LC??? off the beaches of Iwo Jima, half the people on board where killed.

Some people should study their history a little more.  People don’t have a clue what the Japanese did in China and the Philippines.  And I’m not just talking about Bataan and the rape of Nanking.  And you and I are not just talking Viet. and WW2.  This stinkin world is a better place thanks to the U.S.- to put it mildly. See, and we where just commenting on the blame America first crowd.

I’m sorry, we’re supposed to be talking about Ted Kennedy.  How about his brothers Joe and John?

p.s. I know a weasel who finagled a full disability pension 2 years ago after lying about where he served in Vietnam, saying he was exposed to Agent Orange.  He served off the coast but pretended he was on a boat cruising the interior.  Few people vouched for him.  The idiot wrote to his captain, the captain was having none of it….enough said.   That’s an example why I love bureaucracy so much.  People laughed at Reagan when he used to talk about welfare recipients using gov’t. vouchers to buy vodka

hmmm...the blame America first crowd?  I am les interested in blaming America than getting at the truth. So, what if what if what I'm saying is true?  Do deceive ourselves because we don't want to hear anything bad about America or are we willing to face certain uncomfortable facts?  The fact is, we do practice torture, we do detain people indefinitely without charge, and we have invaded countries like Iraq, creating a mess that everyone acknowledges has turned into a quagmire.  So, what do we do?  Just cover your eyes and play the role of the three monkeys? ("Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no...)  We should never criticize this country under any circumstances -- is that what you're saying?  That's strange because I hear conservatives complain about the goverment all the time in your tea party get-togethers.  You don't much like government regulation or interference and you're not afraid to say so.

Torture, warmongering, killing -- these are the things that should make you sick Mark, not truthtelling.  Martin Luther King, Jr. wasn't afraid to look squarely at our policy towards Vietnam and tell the truth about it. He said: "My country is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world."  It's not anti-American to say that if it's true.  And if it's true and we care about this country, we must work to change it.  However, you can't begin to change the status quo if you're in denial about it.  So, please pull the wool out of your eyes.  If we don't speak out about torture, warmongering and economic extortion, we are compromising our values as a nation.  We can't let that happen.  So, if you honestly care about this nation and its values, you need to acknowledge the truth and work to change it.

*less (typo) & Do *we deceive ourselves...

Thank you for saying that this country isn't always perfect, Mark.  I appreciate that I love this country too. I agree with you that we have great ideals as a nation.  I just think we have had a difficult time living up to them sometimes. And Gary was good enough to acknowledge that certain aspects of our history were less the savory. I think any ordinary, reasonable person would agree that the institution of slavery was wrong, for example. 

Now, the images in the youtube video are interesting, if are courgeous enough to watch it.  You see the man at Abu Graib with his arms stretched out like a Christ figure juxtaposed with a depictions of the crucifiction. You see children living on the street, victims of bombings, homeless people, victims of Hurricaine Katrina, a starving child, victims of torture, pictures from the devastation in Iraq.  These images should tell you that something is terribly wrong.

Now, I am speaking honestly and from the heart when I tell you that much of this is the result of the neo-liberal economic policies and militarism on the part of the wealthier nations.  So, I am not picking on the United States per se. I mean, ALL the wealthier countries, including Europe, the U.S., Canada, Japan, etc. 

In the captions near the end, you will read these lines: "while missionarios live in golden citadels and luxurious mansions,  20000 children die every day due to extreme misery." But it is not just missionaries, it is ALL of us who would turn our eyes away from these images, and refuse to see that we are also complicit.  Now, I will just leave you with a plea, because this is the last comment I am going to write on this blog.   Please go see the movie The Girl in the Cafe.  If I could recommend one movie that everyone should see, it would be this one.  Because these facts about how the wealthy nations and financial institutions contribute to the poverty and suffering in the world are all right there in that film.  It's an intriguing story with great acting and just a very thoughtprovoking film (there are no horrifying images that I recall).  I think you would like it. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this issue with me civilly.

Here's the scene with Gina at the G8 Summit from the The Girl in the Cafe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmBwILpMc

2 minutes to find out that I was spot on, http://www.historyguy.com/Mexican-American_War.html and I was going to mention Texas, and that separate war as well, but didn’t. 

Now Mr. Reigns I must stop blogging and get to my League of Women Voters questionnaire post haste, it’s due in 2 days and I glanced at it one time in 4 weeks.  Question;  The tradition of “home rule” means that New Jersey has over 500 municipalities and more than 600 school districts.  What are the budgetary implications of maintaining or consolidating them?

p.s. I was going right to my Governors homework assignment, but I see ana  posted a you tube.  I have a weakness for you tubes.

Sorry, but your link discusses Manifest Destiny, in which he actually gets most of it wrong. It does not state, as you have layed claim, that the Southwest was Stolen. Your "spot on" seems to be nothing but a stain.

Not literally!  Figuratively- but in this case just about synonymous.

No questionnaire tonight.  "What methods do you support for bringing the quality of all schools in NJ up to the level enjoyed by students at our best schools?

Don't believe the first link Liquid, here's another

http://www.nps.gov/archive/fosc/mexican.htm The Mexican-American War was born from the nation's quest for new territory and it's ambition to stretch coast to coast. Questions about Texan independence, disputed territory along the Rio Grande, and revolts in California also contributed to the conflict…… The Mexican-American War was born from the nation's quest for new territory and it's ambition to stretch coast to coast. Questions about Texan independence, disputed territory along the Rio Grande, and revolts in California also contributed to the conflict. ……One of the strategies of the war was that the invasion of Mexico City would force the Mexican government to capitulate to the Americans' territorial claims. Taylor won a string of victories as he marched through Northern Mexico on the way to Mexico City.

To much information has been left out to be agreeing with your links. Again, figuratively, how was the Southwest Stolen? Manifest Destiny had nothing to do with the Southwest, its intended purpose was the Oregon Territory and then incorporated only Texas in 1845, not the entire Southwest.

Here read my links:

Texas Stolen??

The "Stolen Land" Argument

Texas Stolen and We Didn't Cross the Border, the Border Crossed Us

Reigns I'm tired, I'm grouchy when I'm tired.  Links to your web site, so what, I've seen your web site before. 

Allright, here's a compromise, we'll substitute finagled for "stolen."

I'm going to bed.  I write crazy when I'm worn out.  Pecked away at keyboard and answered one question, in between interuptions, on that League questionnaire.  I can never use it.  how would i create jobs in NJ?  how do i know!  Boycott Mexico.   worse problem is I hate the other 9 questions even more.  here's what I got so far...I'm f'd.

1.    I answered a League questionnaire last year when I was a candidate for congress.  I’m still proud of the short, improvised answers I submitted.  I would have made a hell of a legislator, I’m not doctrinaire I’m willing to listen to both sides- I was even a Democrat once.  Governor is an executive position and there’s nothing in my background to suggest that I’d make an effective Governor.  I’m a protest candidate and nothing more.  I’m fighting for fourth place and there are enough fed up people that wouldn’t mind throwing a vote away to make 4th place a real horse race.

Create jobs?  That’s easy.  Do not hire another blessed state employee for at least the next 5 years   That’s message one to the private sector that NJ is business friendly.

p.s. there’s an Independent who’s raised half a million dollars and was a former cabinet member to some other great Governor we had.

Finagled, Stolen, there is no difference. I'm glad you have seen/read my blog, now maybe you can actually clear up your reasoning in stating that the Southwest was Stolen or as you now say, finagled.

A shower and I'm back for one more. a night cap.

I would have liked to have pointed out that your web site also mentions the corruption in Mexico- and we used that to our advantage; a ploy, a scheme, to seize, how about California?  how did we get California?  the timing was great also because we discovered gold and a little later on, oil.

the corruption down there has been a common thread for hundreds of years.  amnesty is the once in a lifetime opportunity to squeeze them good.  a little civil disobedience by our illegals (sorry) and their citizens.

you posted while I was typing the other thread.  that last thread of yours has me SEEING DOUBLE?  I could interpret it to mean that you agree with me- we finagled it, or I'm just too tired to get your meaning.  Good night Reigns, it's 10PM out your way it's 12:55 Wed. morning here.

How about saying we got it at a "fire sale" price while holding a gun to their heads?

Big difference between the Louisiana Purchase, Alaska and this.  What are we arguing about?  It's a dirty little secret and the history books, even when you and I went to school, liquids, didn't hide it.  You missed my whole point in my first thread that got us onto this topic, or did you.  If you like to argue ad infinitum, this is the place.

Fire sale? Gun to their heads? The northern Mexico territories were claimed by Spain, then Mexico. The people of Mexico living in those territories are who rose up against their own government, the Mexican Government. Most were scantly living along the now border areas. Native Indigenous were pushing them out. What gave Mexico the right to claim those territories? The Californio's, Tejano's, etc, were of Hispanic decent, not of Native Aztec, Mayan, etc, decent. All those people were Mexican Citizens, even those who went their when Mexico invited them and gave up the US Citizenship. Texas became its own Republic in 1836, California had the Bear Flag Revolt in 1846. Mexico sent incursions into the Republic of Texas, from 1836 to 1845 for which Texas than asked the USA to help. The beginning of the Mexican American War.

Mexico lost, to the victor go the spoils, the USA then purchased the Northern Mexican Territories and left Mexico alone there after.

Now if you are saying that that was the holding the gun to the head of the Mexican Government, I don't agree, Nor was it a fire sale. The USA did take advantage of its opportunity, but show me a country that would have done things differently. As for history books in school, its a difference in the teacher, mine obviously a little more versed in history which explained the books lessons.

Arguing ad infinitum, no, just pointing out the misinterpreted and incorrect information that is pushed by those who are to lazy to really understand what is being said.

Even the louisiana Purchase included parts of Canada, should we then claim that area now as well? Why do you think Mexico sold us more land in 1853, the Gadsden Purchase? It wasn't all about the railroad. Britian wouldn't even help Santa Ana, so he opted for the sale.

I'm not trying to give a History lesson, but the words you chose to use, Stolen, Finagled, Fire Sale, Gun to their Heads, are all wrong. It simply shows a lack of knowing history. And you have yet to prove your statment of Stolen. Gold and Oil had nothing to do with California, Arizona, New Mexico, Neveda, Utah, Colorado, and parts of Idaho and Wyoming.

My god i can't even go upstairs for a glass of milk.  Liquid i just added i think, three other threads.

how did these ancient white men stake a claim 3 or 4 hundred years ago. what did they do, stick a flag in the ground or something? big f'n deal!

look how you got me talking now, saying things like ancient white men.  Reigns, the second key point you're missing, is when i said we all like to argue here.  I'm not apologizing for anything the United States might have done.  If it wasn't for the great U.S. I don't think this planet would even be functioning by now.  For instence, that extra edge we had by owning and exploiting the western half of our country, might have been just enough to push us and the allies over the top against the axis bastards in WW2.  just a thought.

For instence, that extra edge we had by owning and exploiting the western half of our country, might have been just enough to push us and the allies over the top against the axis bastards in WW2.  just a thought.

You still haven't proven anything was "stolen" as you have claimed. You keep pointing out the benefits of us owning the land, but have not backed up your statement other than attempting to use "manifest destiny".

Reigns, I'm not really concentrating on this tonight, I'm pre-occupied with something else, but I'll keep checking back.  that's what we do right? 

you're obsessed with the word stolen even though I ammended that several times.  What I should have said was "we just about stole the south west corner of the US including gold and oil rich California.

Obsessed? Maybe. As I have stated, you have given the projection of theft when in fact Santa Ana and his lack of Governing effectively along with many other poor choices made by him is what led to the many treaties and agreements between Mexico and the USA. The USA excused debt that was owed by Mexico, paid some of Mexico's bills, and even paid Mexico for the lands. If anything Mexico has reneged on their end of the deals, look to Texas Stolen and We Didn't Cross the Border, the Border Crossed Us

So, as I have asked, show where anything has been stolen, finagled, just about stole, etc. Your word choices have been poor at best.

Reigns do we continue our Kibuki dance today?  you said  “... Mexican American War….Mexico lost, to the victor go the spoils.”

I ask you a simple question.  Who owns the Golan Heights, the Israelis or the Syrians?

You can't answer the question about the Southwest territories that you said were stolen, so now you bring up Israel and the Golan Heights? The two are nothing alike or in comparison.

"Mexico lost to the victors go the spoils"  That's what you said.

the Syrians lost the Golan Heights to the Israelis.  to the victors go the spoils. Israel gets to keep what it won fair and square. Who needs the United Nations?  We just settled that score.  Oh, I see the difference?  It's not settled there, is it?  I'm asking  Liquid.

Oh, but these poor undocumented and the Mexicans back home- there not asking for California back are they?  watch folks as "someone" tries to bring up El Rasa or whatever that org is called.

And I still ask, what's all this quibbling going to look like in retrospect- in 200 years.  answer- selfishness.  and Reigns and Mark you don't dare talk about the problem of endless immigration with me, because you know I'm for closing the border (but being generous with those that are here now.)

Gary, you made a specific statement, clarify it. It is simple to do, yet you keep changing the dialect. Typical of politicians.

How was the Southwest "stolen"? You have projected that the USA was involved in the theft of lands from another country.

Reigns, are kidding me?  i said i'd concede to saying that we "practically" stole it.  That's what i meant by kibuki dance, now i thought we're talking about the Golan Hts.  you're not answering that.

time for one more square dance before I head off to bed, I'll wait 5 minutes (thinking about the Grapes of Wrath, did you go to the link)

I don't care about the Golan Heights as it has no involvement in this arena. But I will answer your question.

I do not agree with the UN, and would much prefer to see it abolished. As for Israel, yes they won the wars, yes they occupy the land, by rights it is theirs. It is only geopolitics that are attempting to be used to deny Israel the lands.

good for you, and we'll talk about Mexico tomorrow, i'm tired.  you know I just read a book titled the middle east: a world of trouble (i think that's the exact title) and i learned a lot i didn't know before about hypocrisy on the part of Israel. the politicians in that gov't are just as beholden to the fringe as those here in this country.   they don't deal straight with the Palestinians (that's coming from some one who's always despised them, me) get my drift?

Maybe thats the difference, I don't despise either one, the conflict is between them and has no effect on me. Their politics is their politics, their choices were their choices, both sides made them. Now with that said, what was the point of bringing this up?

Here's a question for you, have you previously served in the Armed Forces? Have you lived in Europe at all?

“Wars produce many stories of fiction, some of which are told until they are believed to be true.” --Ulysses S. Grant

That's the truest thing ever said about war. The victors write the histories.  But if your philosophy is that "might makes right," what happens when the American empire collapses from fighting one war too many.  We owe China a lot of money...what happens when China decides to cash in her chips? 

By the way, you don't have to answer Liquid's questions, Gary.  He's just trying to get you into a male pissing contest. Don't bite.

Saturday night and I see we're all having a productive labor day wknd.

Reigns, answer- no.  Why the question?  this ought to be good!  ana, that's what guys do, get aggressive.

Reigns, the middle east has no effect on you.  think again.  there's trouble coming, you know what I refer to, don't you?  and a post script, ana says she's leaving. i seem to have brought ana, mark and reigns together on one thing-  you'd all rather talk about torture.  all three of you have mentioned we're off topic on account of me and my boycotts, you tubes and Sinatra.  I hope you'll think better of this in the morning, ana.

Pissing contest?? I'm just not a pacifist. Gary, you may have conceded to saying "practically stolen", but still you have given no explanation other than a link to some guys overviewed opinion.

You have taken my statement out of context, we were discussing the Golan Heights and its history, not the present day dilema, Isreal and Iran. You jump around way to much in points in time and conflict.

so what?  it's getting to anal here, i might also resign my change.org card tonight

Gary, I don't mind meandering conversations once in a while.  Sometimes you learn things you wouldn't otherwise.  However, I do mind when people try to highjack threads for their own agenda.  Just out of respect for the writer, I think we should at least  make an effort to address the topic he's blogging on.  And the you tubes are a bit of a distraction.

I hope Liquid is brushing on his Chinese, because that's ultimately where all this aggression will lead us.  

Marc, I had to check my e-mail and there's lots of change.org responses in the inbox and opened one randomly, yours, and will look at others later.  Mark I feel very bad reading your 2nd  paragraph because your frustration and pain are obvious, and your comments are all valid.  You know I've said in other threads that the onus is on the "amnesty now side" to prove to you and others like you, the reason it's a good idea.  I'm still trying, will get back to you tonight.

I've been there, I've lived with this for 7 years, nobody is going to starve, and the families back home would be thrilled if their relations were offered amnesty, and i believe they would gladly do without the extra money for a while.  nobody says 100% would cooperate; a medical emergency for instance, who's going to argue they shouldn't send the money home.

No, I take that back!  The Hispanic organizations that are doing nothing to help me, could collect the money and forward it- if there was a medical emergency.  That would prove that the "illegal" family sending the money was on board with my plan (taking that extra step).  oh boy, here i go, ana lisa watch out for me!  i'm jumping, the plan is so good I could work out the details in my sleep.  i practically just did.  Damn feckless Hispanic organizations that never open an e-mail from me, or at least won't acknowledge.  (for every body's benefit, see how I just tried to pull ana lisa back into the conversation?)

Mark, ana lisa etc. we've argued about blaming america first, who's more patriotic blah, blah. here's one we can all agree on ....  was fiddling around on my (strange)web site and forgot the media player I posted on bottom of one of the pages, weeks ago

http://www.steinforgovernor.com/Mission.html

mark if you only do one thing for me, go to that link above and scroll down to bottom of the page.  If the song hasn't started playing on its own, click the button.  very end of page, not the other links. it says in tiny letters "the house i live in"

I could be cute and say music soothes the savage beast.  Sinatra, nothing really, thought you might enjoy, and what’s getting settled here anyway. 

On the news tonight I watched the governor of Rhode Island talk about furloughs of state employees.  An older gentleman, he had a way about him, liked him very much.  I say that bloated inefficient government got us in this fiscal mess, not undocumented aliens.  Our governemnt looked the other way for 20 years following the last amnesty, besides. 

Soooooooooooo who’s fault is it that these folks are here- and who’s fault is it that our house is in fiscal disorder.  Screw the politicians, show some mercy for the folks.

p.s.  we go round and round, don’t forget that weeks ago I said that dying towns are being revived by illegal immigrants.  what do you want to do Mark and Liquid uproot them all?  (s.o.b), this gets frustrating, get real already!

P.S. I am leaving change.org all together, so I am not really looking to debate this issue any further, but I do wish you guys could get on topic. Thanks for keeping the comments going, though. Take care and peace out! 

not acceptable.

I will miss you too, Gary. But following this weekend, I will be deleting my profile unless I see a positive change.  You have my email so I'm sure I can look forward to your Kerouac-inspired ramblings.  I'm beginning to enjoy them, which is a bit scary. he,he. Just teasing you! :-)

I had an in box full of comments from change.org, i didn't miss this one.  i love you to.  there's two months to go, i'm going to tighten up the comments.  the crazed writing style hasn't interested any writers in Hollywood yet, so I have to try and focus on the decent poeple of New Jersey first.  your private comments helped me see that.

anyway don't go anywhere.  if you leave i might leave too.  then where will this site be?

I'm glad it helped, Gary. :-) I believe in keeping it real.  But I do hope you can forgive me for being a pain in the ass sometimes.  Fortunately, my boyfriend has a sense of humor about it...a good thing to cultivate when you're around a "hard-headed woman" like me. he,he.

Not on topic, Mark.  And it ignores how we have meddled in Mexico's affairs with our trade policies, Plan Merida, etc.  I've been over and over it, so I'm not going to debate it again.

Tell me, what do you think about what Dave said:

I only recently came to understand in a deep, personal way the true destructive, dehumanizing impact of torture. Torture takes a person and erases that person. I don't know that I believe in good and evil, but seeing the effects of torture up close is the closest glimpse of evil that I have ever had. I did not until recently understand what torture "meant" in a moral or practical sense.

And what do you think about the fact that our nation practices torture?

she was over at the alonso story last time i looked.  she'll be back.  christ, i'm starting to sound like Wire Pallidin from Have Gun Will Travel

I spend about three hours a day in the computer lab, and I really need to focus on my thesis -- not someone who deludes himself that he's never off topic and never, ever uncivil (never mind that your entire raison d'etre for commenting on this blog is to bash undocumented peoples).  The topic was about torture and how it undermines the government's legitimacy. So, you'd prefer to talk about Mexico when your own government is engaging in a practice you disapprove of.  I'm afraid I have a better use for my time than arguing about Mexico all the way down the page.

you write better when you're angry, i write worse.

"I'm afraid I have a better use for my time than arguing about Mexico all the way down the page"

that's price- less and true.

Thank you for the love Gary. You have a certain style I appreciate. Don't sell yourself short. :-)

To my friend who wrote the other day to Karla- “I accuse you of ignorance.”  and “You march on to a pro-migrant site with combat boots on and yelling at Alonso”

You’re welcome.  You were beautiful when you got really mad teacher.woman.

Back to torture.  Let’s make this story a wrap.  I’m surprised nobody read last weeks Richard Cohen piece on said subject- torture.  I saw it last night when I went to bed after all the brouhaha was over……or was the real arguing Sunday night?  This guy knows how to write, but see what he had to say about torture and then we’ll be done here. (I took over tonight, ana)

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/opinion/commentary/article_3452442b-3769-5b2b-ae1a-81271604a37e.html

I was on topic heh?  one last you tube, hope it’s not in bad taste,  all the arguing, and then all of the concern about being off topic, did this movie occur to anyone?  It did to me while I was out working earlier.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74Yj2Dn8M8

ana, i'm in a crisis mode,  i met someone on you tube. i swear to god.  Beto and new jersey's loss.  3000 miles away, it's just platonic, we're both married- but music and movies (and i guess flirting) trumps politics with me.  I'm not shaving -it's unbelievable. of course if someone where to make a movie this would be the perfect epiloque!!!!!

Well Ana, Even if you were to delete your profile here..the retrictionists need to know that people are mobilized on the pro-side. We are well organized and we keep in touch. Their blogging has only hurt weakened them. They have so much to lose and the battlefield really is healthcare. Once Healthcare reform is passed the other issues will resolve at ease. They are freaking out because they are loseing with their negative tactics and they know it. All their eggs are in the anti-healthcare reform basket and I have a pretty good feeling that those eggs are about to fall out of the basket and crack all over the floor and this time they will have to deal with their own mess while we enjoy CHANGE in our country.