Immigrant Rights

*are hatching an evil plot

Analisa, You have me LOLROTF!!...If the brown-skinned gardeners are stopped from pulling out the weeds....there might not be any carrots left to hide??! Carrots can't grow with too many weeds around them. The bunnies are going to be upset when they haven't any Carrots or lettuce??!

Maybe Kurt should can and freeze some carrots and lettuce and hide a few bunnies in his garage to stash them away from this hatching evil plot.

I though Fox News was hatching the evil plot.

I though Fox News was hatching the evil plot.

I thought that Fox News was reporting their own creative interpretation of what happens out there on a day to day basis. :o

hatching the evil plot.

Kurt, I do think that you are hatching the evil plot because you actually believe the news that Fox reports. lol :)

I thought it was change.org that was hatching the evil plot. Well, you heard it here first, folks from our very own rabid restrictionist rabbit who swears Fox News. lol :-)

*swears by

btw, Kurt, you'll know the Reconquista is on when you're having a bad fur day ;-)

We wabbits shy away from da fox.  I prefer to point my rabbit ears to CNN ^^

We wabbits shy away from da fox.  I prefer to point my rabbit ears to CNN ^^

Geee!! You could have fooled us with your silly wabbit posts. They just don't look like an Anderson Cooper kindof thing??

ah, let me guess...Lou Dobbs? (now it's my turn to lose my cookies ;-)   Well, if it's Dobbs, you must have a fine-tuned suspension of disbelief.  Anyway, I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor, Kurt! :-)

OMG!! Analisa years back someone told me to pick up a book on Lou Dobbs and that I would find him interesting. I had no idea and purchased the book. I was disgusted with the book and I still have it in my closet and I am ashamed that he profited off me. It's one of those books you don't even want to auction off on ebay because you wouldn't want to poison someone with this guys selfish irresponsible views he advocates just for rateings with his weird cult following.

Just wondering?? Should I burn the book?? I've thought about setting it on fire and doing a little indian war dance around it.:)

OMG!! Analisa years back someone told me to pick up a book on Lou Dobbs and that I would find him interesting. I had no idea and purchased the book. I was disgusted with the book and I still have it in my closet and I am ashamed that he profited off me. It's one of those books you don't even want to auction off on ebay because you wouldn't want to poison someone with this guys selfish irresponsible views he advocates just for rateings with his weird cult following.

Just wondering?? Should I burn the book?? I've thought about setting it on fire and doing a little indian war dance around it.:)

Hmmm...well, as an card-carrying ACLU nerd (he,he), I can't really recommend book burnings in good conscience.  Maybe you should just barbecue it and feed it to the rabbits.  he,he. No, just kidding!  (Let the right get all the well-deserved credit for book bonfires!) Let's see. Ah, why don't you illustrate it yourself...you know, paint a little pair of horns above Dobbs head and give him a pitchfork. Yeah, that should do it. Then you can make acerbic comments in the margins, and send it back to CNN...once it's nicely grilled. How's that, Mary? lol   

LOL-All of your suggestions sound like fun to me. A Lou Dobbs barbecue makes good eats for the rabbits. haha

But hmmm...then I also like the illustration suggestion...and I am sure Anderson Cooper would enjoy it if they cancelled Dobbs and gave him more airtime because it would be nice to see sweet Anderson Cooper take his space. hehe

I will have to grill it delicately so the illustrations stand out nicely.

I once attended the ceremonial burning of a Milli Vanilli cassette tape circa 1991--my friend's feelings of betrayal required more drastic action than harsh words and binning the tape.  (He probably wishes now he'd kept the tape for reasons of nostalgia.) 

I say, do what you feel.

Milli Vanilli...You bring back memories (they lipsinked..poor Milli Vanilli). That would have been nostalgia....and to actually have it on its orginal cassette would make it extra rare. It would have been a great item to auction off on ebay. lol

Maybe I ought to put the book up in the addict. I am sure if my nieces ever have children they might get a kick out of it one day.:)

I agree...I find Sean Hannity quite disgusting. I thought I was going to toss my cookies too!

I should disclose that in the dark days of 2004-05, I was somewhat fixated on the Three Worst People in America: George Bush, Bill O'Reilly, and Sean Hannity.  I decided that while Hannity posed less of a threat than the other two because he (a) was dumb as a bag of hammers but (b) wasn't president, he was by far the most irritating.  It must be that smirk he is always wearing and his refusal to mentally engage with any person or topic.  Well what can you do.  He's rich and famous and the rest of us just do what we do.  There's a moral in here somewhere, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.

Geeez Analisa...Not to change the subject..but I think I will.:)

I was telling you that I was going to meet with a group called the New Jersey Civil Right Defense Committee. They were focused on trying to ask the Freeholders to end their contract with ICE. I found out that Middlesex County, NJ gets 7 million dollars a year with their government contract and that the one thing that they were trying to ask for was they wanted to separate the federal marshals (criminals detained from felony's) from the ICE detainees. They actually mix them both together in the prison. Anyway this is what was discussed and they have been working on detention issues since 2002.

Question? Do local politicians such as freeholders have any power with this issue or does the prison system continue their policys irregardless to what a local elected official does? I suppose they get the 7 million and ICE comes and says jail these guys and end of story?? Not sure how it works. It seems confusing to me. I am learning as I attend these meetings and read these articles.

Also there was talk about Obama and the fact that he has not done much on changing policy yet. They said procedure is pretty much the same as it was under the Bush administration and raids continue in Middlesex County. Middlesex County is a Democratic Machine (so we call it) but ICE does continue the raids there so they said in the meeting.

I had just saw an article written at Real Clear Politics and it made alot of sense to me. I noticed that the meeting that Obama has scheduled on Immigration Reform for June 8th and the buzz is that guest worker programs have to be part of the agenda as a compromise on a bi-partisan effort. I thought guest worker programs? Does this make sense? We already have 12 million here.

Real Clear Politics knocked some Common Sense Immigration Reform into my head.

Bipartisan...Hmmm...Republican(Conservatives) for cheap labor want temporary guest-workers and Democrats (Liberals) oppose them. The reality however is in order to get CIR passed there needs to be a compromise. The reality is that Obama is going to have to negotiate with both sides to get the senate to vote 60 on the bill.

Can he do it? Although I do not think temporary guest worker programs are a good idea because I am afraid we will face another crisis one day...I'm willing to personally compromise on the issue to get the vote count to 60 and a bi-partisan support and I hope those guest worker programs have some sortof option for a path rather than a future expired visa. I hope other Democrats will compromise because the last thing we need is for them to kill it in the senate again.

Just curious? Does you or anyone know if Obama plans to try to bring all 12 million out of the shadows and total CIR as a part of his agenda this year. I saw something that Senator Robert Menedez, Keneddy and Schummer put together for the June 8th Obama meeting. It looks like the focus the legalization was going to be limited and also focus on local police and how their involvement with inforcement and ICE is not cost effective. At my meeting they suggested that some of this Obama might change with an executive action??

Just wondering if anyone has insight on this?

Hey Mary, I just saw your post (just got back from camping in the Sierras).  To tell the truth, I had to look up the word "freeholder"...I thought it was a member of a secret society or something. he,he.  So that should tell you how much I know.  But that's a good question about the freeholders (county legislators of NJ??). Since the federal government is in charge of immigration, I imagine they have jurisdiction over the immigration detention system.  But ask Dave, since I don't know for sure. But I'm curious about that myself.

I tend to think that guest worker programs are ripe for abuse, but  that may be because I once worked as a volunteer for the United Farmworkers Union...so I'm aware of past abuses (like the bracero program).  But Dave clued me into the fact that some of his clients are grateful for the opportunity.  So, I don't know...I need to learn more about that.  What concerns me most right now is that the system of immigrant detention is turning into a big business and becoming systematized.  So, it's going to be very difficult to change the longer it goes on.  I think we need to make some very big waves about this treatment of human beings as fodder for private profit-making prisons.  We have to pressure Obama to fulfill his promise to stop ICE raids and institute a more humane and fair system of reforms.  With the Dems in power, we have an opportunity here to demand a radical change, and I think we should go for it.  That is the role of activists like you and me...that is why we're even talking about a single-payer health system, for example...because activists put that on the table (sorry if that's a bit off topic).  But we have drifted so far to the right in this country that we appear to lack moral imagination. What the DEMs come up with in terms of CIR may fall short of our demands. But I think we need to decide what we want and begin to frame the debate in our own terms.  There will never be a better time than now. Anyway...just a thought.

I am so glad you enjoyed your camping trip. Unfortunately I had to work and I only went fishing late Saturday Night and then as soon as my line was in the lake a big thunder bolt came down and that was my cue to pack it up. hehe...now I am way off the subject but its ok to take an occasional immigration break and a break from work as well.

A "freeholder" does sound like a member of a secret society (hehe) and I think my brother did mention that they would probably not have any power over immigration policy but Dave would know that. My brother seemed to believe that the government would give the 7 million dollar allowance in contract funds and ICE would put whoever they want there but I am not sure because I would think that the local police would work in collaboration with ICE and Homeland Security?? That was my first meeting and I am waiting for them to shoot me an email for the next one.

Guest-worker programs? We shall see. If you noticed retrictionist's seem to like those guest worker programs which makes me believe they really do not want to throw the undocumented out. They like cheap labor. I think they want to keep them underground to continue to exploit them and to hopefully drive the American Middle Class wage down to the ground. They know that if they have an underclass that lives in fear they can control their workforce.

At my job they are now hiring younger people at lower wage. Friends suggested they wanted them younger because they could control them. I suggested...Nah! They want cheap labor because they are going to fold if they do not compete with all the other cheap labor operations to cut costs. This is why there should never be an underground workforce in the US. It is a threat to all of us...It is a threat to all of the working class documented and undocumented. 

The detention system! Yes this is a profit making system. My brother was saying that he does not believe any of our law enforcement should ever be private industry ever. He says to turn law enforcement into a profit making industry would be very dangerous to society and as we see it is becoming very dangerous. Americans will not react until it smacks them in the face and if we do not get rid of it...it will.

I thought that senator Jim Webb was dead against the immigration bill but my brother had read a book on Senator Jim Webb and he told me that the reason he was against the bill is because of the guest worker program aspect. Jim Webb feels that the current immigration system is backed by a conspiracy to exploit the whole system and break us down to a low wage society. I'm not sure but I thought the prior immigration bill was suppose to allow the undocumented to come out of the shadows as a guest worker not protected by labor laws for up to 8 years them they had to go home and wait in line. (Which probably means no path to citizenship) This is what the democrats oppose and quite frankly I am sure the majority of Americans do too. My brother seemed to believe that Jim Webb would change on the issue depending on what the new reform bill would look like. Also he probably would use it as a bartering chip for support on his prison reform program which happens to be a really brave move to have taken as his key issue on his platform as a Senator in Virginia.

Back to reform...If the Republicans do not back Immigration Reform as far as I see it...they are going to put their party in the grave because Americans are going to see the rhetoric clearly this time around. I do believe it is going to blow up big after healthcare reform goes through.

Now is time to organize a movement and if CIR doesn't pass this year we are going to probably see the Unions mobilize the movement including demonstrations??

"Back to reform...If the Republicans do not back Immigration Reform as far as I see it...they are going to put their party in the grave because Americans are going to see the rhetoric clearly this time around."

Word, Mary!  I'm just as concerned about the profit-making prisons - if not more - as I am about CIR.  So it will be interesting to see where Jim Webb goes with that.  Keep me posted, k? :-)

I will keep you posted on Jim Webb. He is a strange Petunia. lol

He is the kindof person that could shift on our side. The immigration reform bill bothered him and I am now convinced that it had a whole bunch of paths to nowhere in it and that is why it failed.

The dentention system. Very frightening!! We have to try to keep our immigrants as safe as possible until reform passes. I will be working with that group that is trying to keep communications going with the detainees. They did mention that their was an immigrant suicide in the Middlesex County System and that there was plenty of prior warning that they thought this was going to happen but I do not have any details on who, when or what yet because I'm new to the group. I will keep you posted.

(Liquids Reign

Pointing out all the things wrong with the PRO CIR arguments from the view point of an American Citizen against Illegal Immigration.)

Hey Analisa, You have to check out what this nut is doing. He is copying and posting are names and stuff on his own blog.

He is a real sick puppy!

(Liquids Reign

Pointing out all the things wrong with the PRO CIR arguments from the view point of an American Citizen against Illegal Immigration.)

Hey Analisa, You have to check out what this nut is doing. He is copying and posting are names and stuff on his own blog.

He is a real sick puppy!

Thomas, I wish you would convince the U.S. Senate that immigration reform is not a liberal or conservative issue.  Democrats overwhelmingly supported the 2007 reform bill; Republicans overwhelmingly opposed it.

Also I'm curious as to the statutory basis for the claims you're making above about harboring.  Also, where is the source for your "90 percent of the American people" claim?

Thomas,
The ACLU Report on the Rights of Immigrants States:

The U.S. Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) detains over 300,000 men, women adn children for violating immigration laws each year, placing them in jails and dentention centers even though immigration violations are civil -- not criminal -- offenses. Ironically, immigrants are not given the same access to legal representation and due process afforded to criminals.

The UCLU is non-partisan

I very much doubt that church groups providing immigrants a place to stay would be charged or convicted under 8 USC 1324.  I suppose it's possible charges could be brought if the government could prove the defendants knew the immigrants were remaining in the U.S. in violation of the law (simply being out of status wouldn't be enough, if the immigrant were in removal proceedings or under an order of supervision) and that they were concealing, harboring, or shielding the person from detection by the authorities. 

As a political matter, the DOJ is unlikely to start prosecuting churches and charities.  If you hear of such a case, please let me know.  Or even of a case of prosecution of a family or friend who gave an undocumented immigrant a place to stay.  There are millions of U.S. citizens living with undocumented immigrants--their parents, children, spouses, and siblings.  Let me know when the government starts going after those people.  The cases I've seen of enforcement of 8 USC 1324 have been prosecution of smugglers, employers in egregious cases, or immigration officials themselves. 
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/070118alexandria.htm
http://www.northwestgeorgia.com/statenews/local_story_120144014.html
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=600&sid=1312696

Sometimes the government has even charged immigrants with conspiracy to smuggle or harbor themselves, a true waste of law enforcement resources if I've ever seen one.

But if the government didn't go after the church that sheltered Elvira Arellano or any of the churches affiliated with the New Sanctuary Movement that have sheltered or continue to shelter undocumented immigrants, then I'd say that this law is a good example of legislative overreach and will continue to be underenforced because the DOJ understands the political and judicial backlash that would likely result if they utilized it more frequently. 

Also, only in a nativist fantasy would the seizure and forfeiture clause of this law be interpreted in the way you have proposed.  But let me know when you become U.S. Attorney and get the go-ahead from Eric Holder to start going buck-wild with 8 USC 1324.  I'm not holding my breath.

I bet Thomas isn't a very nice neighbor. He would probably call ICE if the church helped an immigrant. I bet that would help reform pass sooner.

I wonder if Thomas would try to make his neighbor knock his house down if his house violated the property line with a civil offense? My guess is that Thomas would not be the happiest camper as a neighbor.

no-one's talking about "immigrants".

Mystifying.  I am talking about immigrants, as the title of this blog should alert you to.

But since you're a stickler for legal terminology, let me know where in the Immigration and Nationality Act you find the term "illegal alien" or "illegal immigrant."

if you know of anyone in *our government* who refuses to do their job let me know!

I thought it would be clear from my comment that the entire federal government is not enforcing 8 USC 1324 as nativists would like to see it used.  So that name you're looking for would be Eric Holder, or maybe Barack Obama.