I didn't realize you hung on my every word, Dream Activist.

The statement that "illegal presence is not a crime" is misleading.  It is, by law, a misdemeanor.  A second offense is a felony.  The vast majority consider a misdemeanor a "crime". 

If the child was born in the United States, that child is an American citizen.  If the child was not born in this country, that child is not a citizen.  While I do not advocate punishment for a minor whose parents committed either a misdemeanor or a felony, I also do not advocate our ignoring the fact that the child is not in compliance with law nor are the child's parents. 

I see no provisions for monitoring or verifying information provided by  those who might benefit from passage of the so-called Dream Act nor provisions for funding said act nor do I see any provisions for enforcement.  I do, however, see numerous provisions which prevent law enforcement agencies from even investigating applicants.  Hmmmm, something very wrong with that picture.

No matter how one attempts to soft-pedal or sugar coat it, the Dream Act is a thinly disguised attempt to provide an amnesty.  It also penalizes those persons who have followed the law and who are currently lawfully present aliens. 

It doesn't matter what the vast majority CONSIDER a misdemeanor to be (what kind of standard is that? the vast majority of people are also heterosexist and homophobic--so we should outlaw sodomy???) -- illegal presence it is IN FACT and LEGALLY, not a crime. I am in FACT, NOT a criminal for my mere illegal presence in this country. Someone who merely gets pulled over and given a speeding ticket, is not a criminal. You should hit the law books you claim to understand and promote.

How does it penalize people who have followed the law? My parents followed the law in becoming legal permanent residents -- is it fair to deport me and penalize them? Gross universal statements for and against the DREAM Act don't really hold up under scrutiny; each and every case is unique.

And of course there are SEVIS type of monitoring enforcement provisions assumed for DREAM just like how F-1 students are treated, which is quite rigorous. What funding does DREAM require? Hiring and employing some new workers for CIS to process 2 million forms over 6 years is either insignificant or good for the economy.

'Amnesty' is not a dirty word in my book; it has noble origins in and unfortunate that it has been maligned by hateful and spiteful nativists. That said, most lawmakers and scholars agree that the DREAM Act is not an amnesty, it is not a pardon for any guilt or offense because the students are not guilty of any wrong-doing on their part; it's giving students a chance of earning citizenship through education and good deeds and no matter how you try to frame it, that is a positive piece of legislation that will be passed sooner than later.

"No matter how one attempts to soft-pedal or sugar coat it, the Dream Act is a thinly disguised attempt to provide an amnesty.  It also penalizes those persons who have followed the law and who are currently lawfully present aliens."

No need to soft-pedal or sugar coat anything, just look at the bill for what it is instead of trying to find every which way of making it into something it isn't so that you can feel justified in your hate.

"I do not advocate punishment for a minor. . ."

But in the same breath -erm i mean keystroke- you advocate for the punishment of a minor. . .

You can't have it both ways, either a child did something wrong and deserves your label of "criminal" and the punishment that follows that, or they did nothing wrong and they deserve to have a chance at proving they would "get in line" if that line were to existed.

Get your story straight next time.

Why have immigrations at all. Lets just let everybody and anybody come here. Why have borders, or laws or any of that. Can't we just all get along. Lets let everybody have everything and share everything. Why can't we just all go to work, well only if we really want to, and then put all our money into one big piggy bank and share it. No Borders, No Problem. Besides, it gets rid of a bunch of the government and tons of lawyer jobs. Yeah for everybody!!!!!!!!!!! 

I am utterly astounded that you, Dream Activist, actually believe that the vast majority are homophobic.  That statement speaks volumes about you as a person.   Your insistence that anyone who does not advocate for the wholesale legalization of undocumented persons is hateful and spiteful also speaks volumes about you as a person.  The only actual hate and spitefulness apparent is, sadly, yours.

Despite your statements to the contrary, a misdemeanor is, in fact, a crime.  If anyone needs a course in the law, it appears that you are most assuredly among those who should be in line.  When I use the term "the vast majority", I have the empirical proof to make use of the term.  Let me quote Black's Law for you. 

Misdemeanor: 1. A crime that is less serious than a felony ans is usu. punishable by fine, penalty, forfeiture, or confinement. (usu. for a brief term) in a place other than prison. (such as the county jail.)  Also termed "minor crime:, summary offense.

Misdemeanor was the label ultimately adopted to apply to all offenses other than treason or felony.

Someone who is "pulled over and given a speeding ticket" has, indeed, committed a crime and can, rightfully,  be considered a "criminal".  If they had not committed a crime, they would not be "pulled over and given a speeding ticket". If they had not committed a crime, they would not face a fine, penalty, forfeiture or confinement as dictated by the law.

While you may believe you are not a criminal, if you have not complied with the laws of this nation you are,  despite all your vehement protests.  If, in fact, your parents followed the law and reside in this country legally, what is it that prevents you from doing the same.  Did you not enter the country legally?  If not, why?
Were you ignorant of the law?  You do understand another legal premise that "ignorance of the law" is no excuse.

As regards the Dream Act, you conveniently ignore that there are no provisions for investigating the legitimacy of claims made by those the act would assist.  You also ignore the fact that fraudulent documents can, and have, been used by undocumented persons in attempts to enter this country, yet the Dream Act prevents any investigation of those persons making application under the act.  That is nothing short of ridiculous.

The fact is that many jurist consider the wording of the Dream Act fatally flawed as do legal scholars and members of Congress.  Were that not the case, the act would have progressed further.

It is clear that what you actually want is a wholesale amnesty for another class of undocumented persons.  It is clear that you have little if any respect for either the law nor these United States nor for her citizens nor for those immigrants who entered this country legally nor for those persons who continue to follow the laws of this nation in their quest for admission and citizenship nor for the fact that previous amnesties have done little in the way of prosperity or education for those amnestied nor have such amnesties been of benefit to either the nation or to those amnestied.  You advocate that all those persons who follow the law in their quest to immigrate should "go to the back of the bus" while those who ignored the law should be rewarded for doing so.

May I remind you that "amnesty" presumes a "pardon" for "crimes against state sovereignty.  For over 200 years, the United states only granted amnesty in individual cases and had never given amnesty to large numbers of illegal aliens. Then in 1986, Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) which gave amnesty to all illegal aliens who had evaded law enforcement for at least four years or who were working illegally in agriculture. This resulted in 2.8 million illegal aliens being admitted as legal immigrants to the United States.The amnesty of 1986 was supposed to be a "one time only" amnesty. Yet since 1986, Congress passed a total of 7 amnesties for illegal aliens: The Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA) Amnesty of 1986 - the "one-time only" blanket amnesty for some 2.8 million illegal aliens. Section 245(i) The Amnesty of 1994 - a temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens. Section 245(i) The Extension Amnesty of 1997 - an extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994. The Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty of 1997 - an amnesty for nearly one million illegal aliens from Central America. The Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA) of 1998 - an amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti. The Late Amnesty of 2000 - an amnesty for approximately 400,000 illegal aliens who claimed they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty. The LIFE Act Amnesty of 2000 - a reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty to an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens. After the 1986 amnesty, illegal immigration increased significantly. Census Bureau 2000 data indicate that 700,000 to 800,000 illegal aliens settle in the U.S. each year, with approximately 8-11 million illegal aliens now currently living in the United States. According to a study by the Center for Immigration Studies, the total net cost of the 1986 IRCA amnesty (direct and indirect costs of services and benefits to the former illegal aliens, less their tax contributions) amounted to over $78 billion in the ten years following the amnesty.

Yet an amnesty benefits neither our society nor those being amnestied. An Immigration and Naturalization Service study found that after living in the United States for 10 years, the average amnestied illegal alien had only a seventh grade education and earned less than $9,000 a year.  While this may well be more than a person can earn in their native country, it most assuredly falls below the poverty level in the United States which, by extension, can be presumed to put additional burdens on both governmental and non-govenmental organizations, cities, towns, schools, law enforcement agencies and every citizen of this country.

The point you clearly seem to either have missed or chosen to ignore is simply that the citizens of the United States, by and large, believe that this country is a nation of laws and respect those persons who abide by the law. All the attempts made to claim that we are somehow racist, "restrictionists", "nativists", hateful and spiteful when we subscribe  to the premise that those wishing to become citizens of this country should also respect and abide by the law earn those making such claims little credibility.

"I know that's very hard for people to understand, but it's not a federal crime," Giuliani said, adding later that "I was U.S. attorney in the Southern district of New York. So believe me, I know this. In fact, when you throw an immigrant out of the country, it's not a criminal proceeding. It's a civil proceeding."

DA wasn't saying that a misdemeanor is not a crime, she was saying that "illegal presence" is not a misdemeanor.  This is just the state of the law.  I think you have confused "entry without inspection," a misdemeanor, with "illegal presence," a term without meaning under the Immigration and Nationality Act.

One can overstay a visa, or be present without authorization of the government, but these are civil rather than criminal violations.  Removal proceedings are civil, not criminal, proceedings.  If they were criminal proceedings, then immigrants would have a strong claim to all the due process protections afforded to people charged with crimes, including free legal counsel. 

As to your points on amnesty, I disagree, but I don't have time to write a novel disguised as a comment.

(Majority of America is heterosexist and/or homophobic, hello Prop. 8, banning gay adoptions, lack of marriage equality, no fed hate crime laws. The nativist hate mail sounds very much like the homophobic hate mail in my inbox on a daily basis - "subhuman piece of shit" -- that isn't open for discussion).

What I don't understand is your claim that you don't believe in punishing a minor ... but you are willing to punish 2 million minors, teenagers and young adults who have committed no crimes at all (students with aggravated felonies and crimes on their records do not qualify for the DREAM Act). Where's the logic in that?
Kids -- who could not get in line on their own, and had no control over their decisions. You advocate criminally punishing children for the alleged transgressions of their parents -- something that is unprecedented.

I came here LEGALLY - False assumption from you again. My Parents "got in line" as well as me - Another false assumption on your part that I didn't.

The problem was that they applied for legal permanent residency while I was studying here. They got accepted, my visa extension got denied BECAUSE they got accepted. I was a minor -- I couldn't correct that 'wrong' although I still see nothing wrong with it. Doing things the RIGHT and LEGAL way screwed me over -- so much for 'respect of the law' and 'abiding by the laws.' If they had not got in line, I would still be legal -- would you advocate that?. Actually, I wouldn't be in this country, I would have gone back to where they came from. But I can't and won't now because that means a 10-year ban.

You advocate punishing me because my parents followed the law and because I listened to my parents and lawyers as a child, who told me to stay. You advocate punishing my citizen grandparent and parents who would be helpless without me. You want to penalize my citizen sister and my beautiful niece, who would grow up without my presence in her life. Kudos to you for being so pro-family values. I want the chance to legalize myself through the DREAM Act, a chance I never got -- denying me that is contrary to American values, ideals and principles. There is no excuse for denying me that chance besides intolerance and hate for my family and me, hate for other kids, students and their hard-working families.

(btw -- do you expect a 5 year old to go and file their own paperwork? i mean they are ignorant of the law at that point right, so lets punish them and never give them a chance to adjust their status -- that's EXACTLY what you are saying).

Your long tirade on amnesty is irrelevant to this discussion, especially in terms of costs to society. We are talking about graduates, post-graduates (Me), and students ready for military service who can only be economically beneficial to this country like the long line of H-1 B visa students and workers.

The military wants us, a filibuster majority in the Senate is ready to pass the DREAM Act, most universities and regents are pro-DREAM ... It is an inevitability, much like the struggle for gay marriage.

I'll send your photos of my wedding reception in 10 years or so, held right here with my family. =))

Cheers.

Your statement, Dream Activist was "I am in FACT, NOT a criminal for my mere illegal presence in this country".   You, then contradicted your own statement with the following "I came here LEGALLY"  Which is it?    You cannot have it both ways.

I rarely make assumptions, however, it is exceedingly difficult to sort truth from fiction and fact from exaggerations in far too many of your claims. Quite honestly, there are far too many glaring inconsistencies in your statements and claims with regard to your circumstances and status.

If, as you claim, your citizen grandparents and parents would be "helpless" without you, you should be aware that their are provisions for just such circumstances.    Shall I then presume that you managed, all by your lonesome, to not only reach post-graduate status but also managed to provide housing, food, medical care, tuition, books, etc. for yourself, for your  "helpless" citizen grandparents and your "helpless" parents while also managing to acquire a graduate degree and continue to post-graduate status?  Shall I presume you did so with no contributions from government of any kind and in compliance with all rules, regulations and the law? If so, I applaud you. 

However, what is becoming most exceedingly clear is your actual hatred for not only this country but for the citizens of this nation and her laws.  What is even more clear is that you shall continue to insist that it is you who should be accomodated and to perdition with all those persons who have complied with the laws of this nation.  What is even more clear is that you have no actual conception of American values, ideals or principles.  But then again how could you have a conception of Americn values, ideals and principles. You want your road to citizenship to be paved with another amnesty.  

I wonder, would you be willing to return to your native country and go through the rigors of applying for a visa and then complying with the requirements to obtain a green card and eventual status as a citizen if the law were such as to remove the ten year ban you cite?  Would you be willing to move to the "back of the bus" behind all those persons who have complied with the current law?   I should very much be interested in your answers.

Cynthia,

You have it all wrong.  You said and I quote "Your statement, Dream Activist was "I am in FACT, NOT a criminal for my mere illegal presence in this country".   You, then contradicted your own statement with the following "I came here LEGALLY"  Which is it?    You cannot have it both ways."

It is very possible for people to have come to this country LEGALLY but are now uncodumented because of many reasons.   You obviously did not read DREAM Activist's entire post because it would explain why DA is in the situation that DA is now.  A quote from DA's post, "The problem was that they [DA's parents] applied for legal permanent residency while I was studying here. They got accepted, my visa extension got denied BECAUSE they got accepted. I was a minor..."

Another way... A child could have come here on a tourist visa with their family, which is a legal way of entering this country, but that family may have overstayed their visa without the child's knowledge and now the child is living an undocumented life.

How can you say DA has hatred for this country?  If Dream Activist really did hate it, DA would have have left and never looked back.  Obviously DA is fighting to stay here along with DA's entire family because DA loves this country and wants to give back to it. DREAM Activist is an American in every sense of the word...adapting to the culture, speaking fluent English, knowing more about the U.S. than many citizens living here, would do anything for this country, etc. 

I love that you say DA has hatred for this country but fail to provide proof of that statement.  Unless you are in an undocumented student's shoes, you will never know the hardships they have had to go through to get through college and graduate school without government funding.  Why would DA be fighting for the DREAM Act if this individual did not want to be here? 

This needs to pass along with UAFA!

To send a message to your elected officials that tells them to pass UAFA follow use the link bellow.

http://immigration.change.org/actions/view/tell_congress_to_pass_the_uniting_american_families_act_2

hahaha how ignorant can you really get, honestly..

Thread closed.