We are all individual nations with our own governments, laws and citizens.   Successful countries should not have to support the needs of citizens of countries that are unsuccessful because of their bad leadership,  politics and the lack of will to change them.     I keep hearing the word "change" in here.   Well that is exactly what the citizens of any nation need to do is to change their leadership and politics in their own countries in order to gain that same success.   The answer isn't to burden an already successful country with their problems because they lack that same courage and will.  

It doesn't make sense for the billions of humans we have on earth to all reside in the only parts of it that have achieved political success while all of our natural resources and ariable land space are spread out all over the planet.  Talk about being stacked in like sardines!    Imagine the cultural and religious clashes we would have with no countries or borders.   Anyone in here want to live next to a Jihad Islamist?  

Having immigration laws and quotas has nothing to do with wanting to keep the rich..rich and the poor...poor.    It is about protecting our own citizens,  our own natural resources and our own ariable land space within our own borders.

What we do in *our country* is our business, not the business of foreign countries.
I'm against all interventionist policies and Imperialism.
Bush did nothing about illegal aliens and I fear that Obama will do the same.
He's doing a lot of Bush's policies so far, right out of the Bush playbook!
Where's the "Change" that we voted for? That Mexican border is *still* wide open and growing more violent by the day! The drug cartels are *beheading * people down there and they say it's spilling over into the U.S. and *nothing* from Obama!
If President Obama doesn't get the job done and close that border down securely I'll never vote for him again.
We don't need a "third" Bush term.

Mr President, where's the beef? Where's the "Change?"

(Having immigration laws and quotas has nothing to do with wanting to keep the rich..rich and the poor...poor.    It is about protecting our own citizens,  our own natural resources and our own ariable land space within our own borders)

Mark, I do not buy your argument at all. Why would you support future guest worker programs knowing we already have many undocumented here that are not going home?  You are fully aware they will never leave nor will they be deported.

And why would you oppose reform on immigration knowing that the current immigration system is keeping people stuck here because of so many restrictions? The costs of coming through the Border are so expensive and dangerous that many of the undocumented refuse to self deport out of fear it would be impossible and costly to re-enter. This is just a reality on the issue.

If you really cared about population...and it seems like that is one of your main issues than your must be aware that a less restrictive system would lower the population.

Besides all of this it seems like the population issue looks like another way to rally up some votes for politicians.

Richard Nixons-The War on Crime (Poor People)
Reagans-The War on Drugs (Poor People who use drugs)
Clinton and Bush-The War on Terror (On Immigrants)
Obama?? I hope it isn't-The War on the Population quotas -Resources and global Warming as an Excuse to go after-(Immigrants again)

It is proven that all of these Wars have only put retrictions on the problems and they actually have agrivated the situations more. They are only rhetoric to rally up voter groups for political purposes.

When is the political rhetoric going to stop for the sake of "Lets get the vote out"!

Why do we not come up with realistic solutions that do not attack a specific defenseless group.

Dave, who are you replying to?  Me or Thomas?

Mark, probably me.
Dave is a lawyer admitted to The Bar but he doesn't seem to know the differance between an *illegal alien* and an *Immigrant*. I don't know of anyone who is, as Dave phrases it, "anti-immigrant."
The problem with all of this is that due to all the *illegal aliens* in this country there is a growing backlash to stop *legal immigration* in this country now.
And maybe we should. We've had long periods of no immigration many times before.
Personally, my anger is directed at my govt and it's employees (the "hired help") who *refuse* to do their jobs regarding enforcing our immigration laws and not the illegal liens.
If you don't do your job in the D.P.S. ("dreaded private sector") what happens to you? You get fired, that's what happens! I'm retired from the U.S. Coast Guard and if (we) didn't do our jobs we'd have been courtmartialed! And unlike the desk jockeys in Washington we often times were in very dangerous situations.
As an "Officer of the Court" I'm sure that Dave can tell you that enforcing our laws is not "optional."
I expected that from Bush and his $big business$ buddies who wanted cheap slave labor but I *do not* expect it from President Obama! He promised us "Change" and that he'd stand up for the *working people* of this counry and we were willing to give him the chance. I *hated* Bush! He tried to shove that "amnesty" crap down the throats of the American People, twice!
Well now President Obama has his chance and if he tries to act like Bush he'll be a one-term president.
As for any "amnesties" for illegal aliens the phone calls to the senate after Bush tried it the *second time* were, "80 to 1 against" in all senate offices *including Ted Kennedy's office in Boston, Mass* however the staffers there said when asked about the ratio; "we have no comment."
The Boston radio talk shows told their listeners to call Kennedy and Kerry's offices and thy sure did!
President Obama needs to ***listen*** to *The American People* on this and other issues and not the lobbyists and he'll do fine.
If he doesn't...

why didnt the pylgrims stay in England and fight for the freedom of religion and for w/e else they came for??... why didnt the Italians, Germans stay in their own homes. why didnt the Irish stay and suffer from the potato famine. there were enough people here in the U.S, we didnt need any more after the 1900's.

... as long as WE all live in this planet, and share this world, we all should help eachother. not only the U.S, but every developed nation should help. If we avoid what happens in the world, we will pay for it.

this whole population issue has to do with legal immigration as well... some countries failed to advance b/c of war created by other nations. because it is "dog eat dog" out there. The U.S is only 300 years old. it got a fresh start, fresh everything. those first immigrants came here b/c they couldnt live their good life back home, its either listen to King George or get your head choped off.

in politics is all about percentage, well if 60% of Americans want everyone to own a gun, that doesnt make that 60% know what they are talking about, its just happens that theres more numbnutts than educated people.

Alex, I cannot speak for dead people.  I am not them and they aren't me.   All I can tell you is that our global populaltion has increased immensely since those first pilgrims came here.  I don't live in how things were yesterday.  I only know how things are today and that is that all countries have immigration laws now and it is partially based on controlling their population growths.  

I don't mind helping others in their own countries but I object to being overwhelmed with other country's poor and needy by importing them here in large numbers that we can neither assimilate, or have jobs and resources for.   I don't believe in committing national suicide all in the name of some so-called humanitarian effort.

I think to be fair we should allow an "equal" number of immigrants from different races and nationalities based on our needs, ability to assimilate them, job opportunities and without putting undue burden on our social infrastructures, natural resources ariable land mass and carrying capacity of our nation.

I think to be fair we should allow an "equal" number of immigrants from different races and nationalities based on our needs, ability to assimilate them, job opportunities.

I agree with that. 

without putting undue burden on our social infrastructures, natural resources ariable land mass and carrying capacity of our nation.

Mankind will figure out ways to fix our social infrastructures, utilize our natural resources with technical enhancements and carry the capacity of our nation through advanced technology by utilizing all of our youths that are drivin to learn through a progressive education system. The Dream kids will save us!

We have always been the best at this in the US. The government has damaged our technology by putting too many restrictions on the people.

This is why there should never be restrictions placed on a suppressed underground group of people that actually physically exist in our country. This is not the American way. Other countrys put retrictions on there systems and they are not as successful as us. We are looking more and more like them everyday.

Wow!  I think this is your best post yet, Dave.  You know, I was thinking of an argument along similar lines: i.e. if we truly care about the environment, global warming and population, we need to start with ourselves. But you've taken it to a whole other level in terms of an eloquent, thoughtful and brilliant argument.  You know, I hope you get a judgeship some day.  I mean it! We could use more compassionate and  thoughtful judges in our immigration courts.  Just saying.

Judges are supposed to make their decisions based on our laws and constitution not emotionalism or biasness.

Getting back to the environment there is no way that the U.S. can increase its ariable land mass to increase our carrying capacity unless we take over Mexico or Canada or figure how we are going to irrigate our entire deserts.   Why do any of that to increase our population size when there are so many countries out there that are blessed with an abundance of natural resources and space already but refuse to create an economy for their own people?   The U.S. again is being demonized for not taking in the entire world's poor populations and that is a ridiculous demand to make.    We already take in more legal immigrants than any other country in the world.

"Americans constitute 4.5% of the world's population but consume 25% of the world's energy and produce about 20 %of global carbon emissions."

This is breathtaking to contemplate...that is, just how big the American footprint is, and what a staggering toll this has taken on the planet's resources.  If we truly care about this  issue, we must take reponsibility for our role in the destruction of the world environment.  This means that we can't just pawn off our pollution on our neighbors through cap and trade policies.  And we must take responsibility for the devastation caused by U.S.-based trans-national corporations in countries around the world.

Just to give one example:  In the summer of 2008, the Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal (TPP) met at Colombia’s National University as the culmination of a two and a half year investigation of human rights abuses in Colombia. The international panel, which included a Supreme Court judge, several university professors, a Nobel Laureate, and leaders from the Guambiano and Mapuche nations read their verdict to an overflowing crowd, which spilled out on to the university’s Plaza del Che. During the sentencing, the judges roundly condemned the Colombian and U.S. governments, along with 43 transnational corporations for their role in the violence that has consumed the lives of so many Colombians. The tribunal focused specifically on the role played by multinational corporations in Colombia (most are U.S.-based companies). The corporations named in the verdict include many well-recognized names: Monsanto, Dyncorp, Occidental Petroleum, Nestlé, Coca-Cola, and Chiquita Brands International, among others.  

 Why do any of that to increase our population size when there are so many countries out there that are blessed with an abundance of natural resources and space already but refuse to create an economy for their own people?   The U.S. again is being demonized for not taking in the entire world's poor populations and that is a ridiculous demand to make.    We already take in more legal immigrants than any other country in the world.

Mark, like I said before they are here and they are not going home. That is the reality.

Traditional immigration waves show that the 2nd and 3ird generations have very few children. I am a perfect example of this. My Grandmother had 12 children and I had none...(nor do I want them) and most of my cousins had followed my footsteps and feel the same way. How many did you produce Mark? If you are really concerned about the population growth then I suggest you put forth your energy and start educateing our youths on birth control.

Mark, do you realise they opposed your Irish ancestors for the same reasons your are opposeing our recents immigrants. All this stuff about population is hypothetical and it is an old argument. You can predict population increases generally but its off the wall to base your argument on Immigration Reform knowing that the population is here and it is a stable population.

Reform is going to happen anyway. It is only a matter of time. As far as future populations to be quite honest with the way our economy is I have doubts that many people are going to come in again the way it use to. Not in our lifetime.

So many things can happen in years to be that take your predictions and change them. Natural Disasters....Populations can shift to other country's for whatever "unpredictable reasons".

When you talk about deporting 12 million human beings using a population argument you haven't re-invented the wheel when it comes to immigration rhetoric.

This is the same argument they had when your Irish ancestors came in.

Unless you have some a crystal ball into the future....No one has a clue what will happen in years to come and as you can see you are living in the US alive and well thanks to your ancestors journey to the US.

Did you ever hear of the saying Let it Be.

"Americans constitute 4.5% of the world's population but consume 25% of the world's energy and produce about 20 %of global carbon emissions."

Thank you for proving my point.  The U.S. needs to curb its populaltion growth to keep from consuming even more of the world's natural resources along with a sound program to cut our consumption right now.   I am involved in groups whose goal is just that.