Sure - Don't do anything to destroy the bus. of being illegal - It only takes the jobs of black & white americans and supports the Mexican economey. --- Ya'll can kiss my ass!!!! 

Eloquently put, Tom.  Thank you for your contribution.

Let's try it a bit more eloquently than Tom put it.
We have laws, and have long believed that we are a nation of laws.  When we do not enforce the laws that we have, we end up with results that we, as a nation, did not intend.  Enforcement of the law is as important as the law itself.  In the past few decades, immigration enforcement has become lax.  Due to this, we have large quantities of illegal immigrants in this country.  This is against the intention of our current set of laws.  Enforcing the immigration law that we have is as important as passing new immigration laws.

The poster obviously has little pity for those who did not obey these laws, and believes that his livelihood and the livelihood of many Americans is threatened by communities of law-breakers.  Why should pity be given to those who steal opportunity from law-abiding citizens?

Every country has immigration policies, and exercises varying degrees of enforcement.  The problem in our country is not so much the current increased emphasis on enforcement, but the lack of enforcement in the past. 

Businesses, from small employers to major companies have been getting away with this for years, with the complicity of local, state and federal enforcement agencies.  Much of our food cultivation, slaughter and distribution depends on workers willing to put up with low pay, communal housing, and a lack of basic fair labor rights.  The less "documented" laborer, the better. 

I'm mad as hell that US individuals (i.e. business owners) have been exploiting undocumented immigrants for years, and I wish our enforcement agencies had taken immediate steps to punish the business owners and deport the undocumented immigrants.  If, in the beginning, we had consistently punished the "illegal" businesses, we would now have less "illegal" aliens.
But the harm is done.  So, what do we do now?  The image of cracking down like "Elliot Ness" and the Untouchables, storming into fields and processing plants all across America is hard to fathom.
Unlike many posters, I don't come armed with solutions. However, effective and fair solutions can be developed if we work in a spirit of mutual understanding, respect and willingness to work towards consensus.My question to you, Dave:  Do immigrant workers generally accept less pay than most US citizens would accept for doing the same work?  My concern is that, even if we could wave a wand and "send everyone back", we could easily invite the same problem by enticing the most desperate people to accept a pay level, much lower than a living wage and much lower than most US citizens would accept. 

Maybe we could encourage companies to pay the going rate, which would allow citizens and immigrants to compete for the jobs on a level playing field.  This would, of course, increase end user prices, but could actually be marketed at a premium as "fair trade".  What if consumers had the opportunity, in the supermarket, to choose "fair trade" lettuce, knowing that this meant the workers were being paid a competitive, living wage.  Would a consumer pay more?  It's already working for some commodities produced in other countries.  What a concept - fair trade in the US!

I can't resist adding my 2 cents here- My partner of 5 years and I can't legally be married.  Last year Latino voters helped tip the vote against Referendum I in our home state of Colorado that would have given same sex couples equal legal rights afforded everybody else in the state (look up the exit polls - it's a reality). Three days ago Latinos, again, overwhelmingly voted for Proposition 8 in California that denies legal rights/protections for same sex couples.  That vote was close enough that if they hadn't voted the way they did, it would have failed.  So, my question is this - why should I support their civil rights when they refuse to support me and others in the same situation as me?  It's a fair question.  How does that saying go?  "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours...".

Bud, I like your idea of "fair trade" products in the U.S.  Yes, I can tell you that immigrants will work for less than citizens.  Many will work for what they can get, which is usually many times what they can make back home.  Many of the immigrants I come into contact with in my work have fled from conflicts or persecution in their home countries.  Some came here to pursue a better life. 

The issue of rule of law is a big one in the immigration debate.  As a student of law and then as a practitioner, I have come to value the predictability and security that obedience of the law brings.  My work gives me some insight into the systems of law and governance in other countries, and things are bad in many places.  Police in some countries are as likely to steal and kill as the criminals.  Corruption and injustice are rampant. 

But the values of predictability and fairness that the U.S. legal system tries to implement are often missing in the immigration context.  For instance, immigration judges have so much discretion that some judges grant 90% of their cases and some deny 90% of their cases.  The restrictive 1996 laws instituted harsh retroactive immigration penalties for convictions—often misdemeanors for which no time was served—committed by permanent residents decades before.  As a result, many longtime residents with U.S. citizen families were detained and deported.  That doesn’t seem fair or predictable to me.

Furthermore, for the great majority of immigrants who cross the border unlawfully, there simply is no legal path to entry.  I get confused when people talk about “going to the back of the line” or “waiting in line” because in many many cases, there is no line.

Looking at the history of our immigration laws, it’s clear that most of those laws were enacted not in order to better regulate the process of immigration but instead in response to pressure from past nativist movements.  The targets then were Germans, Catholics, Irish, Italians, or Chinese.  Now they are Mexicans and Muslims. 

I appreciate your comments and thanks for visiting my blog.  I hope this sheds a bit of light on where I’m coming from.  More on that here.

I am not against immagration but illegal immagration. We are at war an therefore anyone who enters our country illegally should be consodered an enemy of this counrty. I reject the idea that we can not deport them all. The fact is that we do not need to. What we need to do is make it a feloney with a mandontary prison sentence for anyone who hire and undocumented worker. Without work they would have to go home. To those who say it is cruel to deny them government assistance for which they did not pay into I say it robs Americam and legal immigrants. to thosewho say, "What about their children who are American citizen?" I say that we take children away from criminals all the time. With 12 million illegal immigrants and six million Americans out of work don't tell me that they don't take jobs away from hard working Americans. If they will not go home the build prisons in the deserts and make them grow their own food. Our country is at war and anyone crossing our border illegally should be considered an enemy. Call me insentive if you will but I say I am senitive to those who abide by our laws. It has taken members of my family ten years to immigrate legally. why should they be punished fort the crimes of those who have shown a disreguard for our laws.

Daniel, I don't think you are insensitive. I also don't think anyone could actually be FOR illegal immigration. I understand your frustration. I wish all 12 million illegal immigrants could be sent back, too. But then again, I also wish European colonists were stopped at the Appalachian Mountain range and the rest of this country was still in the hands of the original locals, (at least those natives who were here around the 16th century).

I also have a problem with the title of the article that started this blog-thread: "Stop the Raids". The word "raid" is emotionally charged, just like the word "abortion". Who could possibly be "PRO-Abortion", and yet I hear that phrase used far too often. Who could possibly be FOR Raids? The term "raid" brings to mind an oppressor and a victim, with an element of "shock and awe".

Let's assume we can all agree on the principal of conducting business under the existing laws of this country. Currently all employers must require a prospective employee to fill out an I-9 form, which documents the legal status of the individual. Two or more forms of identification are required. The problem is the ease at which these forms of identification can be forged or stolen. Must a company employ fraud-document specialists like the Secret Service to catch these "counterfeit" workers?

This is why, even after a raid, the company is frequently not penalized. The company can usually prove that it requested and received all the required identification. If it can be proven that a company knowingly hired illegal immigrants, the company should be punished to the full extent of the law. But, it may be difficult to isolate the actual people to send to jail, even if there was such a penalty. Who are you going to send "up the river"? The President, CEO, CFO, Vice President, Treasurer, etc? The fact that the counterfeit documentation was not discovered by the Human Resource department, is no basis to send all of the corporate officers to jail. How about the beleaguered human resource clerk, who, at $9.50/hr, is the only person who actually handled the I-9 Form and looked at the identification?

To me the larger question is, what information did Federal authorities have, that the company did not have? In order to execute a successful raid, the Feds obviously had access to information, which was not available to the company. Why not present it to the company and let the company terminate the employee? I agree that if the company is complicit in this crime, it should be severely punished - and not a simple wrist slap.

This Pollyanna scenario would only work if ALL employees were fingerprinted, (I'd rather use embedded micro-chips, but realizing the outcry from Libertarians, ACLU, etc. I won't go there). We could then slowly, but methodically, develop a "no-employ" list, similar to the "no-fly" list. Without access to employment or social services, an increasing level of self-deportation would occur.

I know this sounds too Orwellian, but either we do this right or we don't do it at all. We need to stop illegal employment at the outset. Conducting raids "after the fact" is less efficient, much more expensive and turns into a public relations nightmare.

One remaining thought:
Whether it's fingerprinting, micro-chip, raids, periodic amnesties, or the world's longest and highest fence, we're still missing the obvious. Why are we only having this problem from our southern neighbor? Why are there no border problems from the north? The answer, of course, is a difference in prosperity. I propose that we institute a "good neighbor" policy and set a goal to elevate Mexico's standard of living. This would be a multi-year plan - with importance given to it on the order of the Marshall Plan or putting men on the moon. We're a society built on the principle of communal "barn raising". It's simple: we need to help our neighbor. If we succeed, there will be no immigration issue. I realize this sounds unrealistic in this current economic climate, but it doesn't have to start immediately with lots of money. Just a shift in focus and a public statement of understanding can be the first appropriate action. How about a regular monthly meeting at the highest level - President Obama and President Felipe Calderón? It's the least that neighbors can do.

Excellent work, Dave.  Way to come out swinging at the Obama administration.  I've gotta do some swinging of my own soon.

Kyle swing away at the Obama amenstration you will be in the minority. 75% of the country believe (that includes McCain and a majority of his supporters) President is the person best suited to lead this country.
Bud. We have a system whereby an employee's citizenship and right to work can  be verfied. It is called the SSN#. To work all employees need a Social Security number. If the preson doing the hireing fails to verify that that number belongs to the applicant and is laited in our system it is that persons responsibility and they are the one that should go to prison. Most people will if ordered to ignore verification will surely point to the higher up who then violated the law. If it goes to the CEO then I say the higher the crime the higher the punishment.
Mexico poverty is due to their corrupt governmnet and is not a problem that can be nor should be fixed by our government.

moi j'ai toujours voulu vivre la ou je suis né et j'ai grandi. oui qui n'as pas envie de voyager et vister le monde c'est humain et naturel. je ne vois pas pourqoui j'irai en europe ou aux usa meme si je dois friser la misere et c'est la ou une nouvelle conception du monde doit voir le jour. les puissances doivent s'ouvrir sur le reste du monde etleur faire patager une partie du progres au moins pour leur permettre d'acceder a un niveau de vie decent et digne. peut on tolerer aujourd'hui que des enfants meurent de fain c'est abominable. il y a crise morale et on doit inventer un nouveau monde.les puissances doivent regir le monde et gerer de maniere civilisé la planete .accorder la confiance aux scientifiques qu'aux opportunistes de tout bord et c'est comme ca seulement que l(on trouvera des solutions au climat actuel et en meme temps accelerer les recherches dans tous les domaines notamment encourager ceux qui sont sur les traces d'eistein et la theorie des cordes pour nous expliquer a la fois l'univers et pourqoui pas trouver des aeroglisseurs pour changer d'univers le cas echeant car a cette allure on va vers la catastrophe. thanks

My Daughter and I are U.S. Citizens, however, my Husband and her Father is a Mexican.  He had entered the U.S. illegally, and I thank God everyday that he did.  I met my soul-mate and even after he was picked up at work on April 21, 2008, and went through immigration preceedings, I still loved him enough to give up my own country.  I grew up without my Father (big time alcoholic) and I would never put my Daughter through that just because her Daddy was BORN in another country.  Now, my question is: Why do U.S. citizens think it is ok to make their "families" go through such a horrible thing.  I am a U.S. citizen, why do I not have the right to live with ALL of my family together in my country?  Do you know how much my husband makes a week here in Mexico?  He makes $80 if he is lucky.. a WEEK, and he works 6 days a week, 10-11 hour days.  Now I am American and I believe in all the American traditions such as Christmas trees, presents, Birthdays, dryers, heaters, etc. just to name a few.  Well guess what, my 1 year old will not have any of those things, and I wonder at times what all of our future will be in 10 years, which is when my husband will be allowed to APPLY for a visa due to being in the U.S. for over a year and leaving and then returning.  My husband does not care about being a citizen, all he wants is to be able to live in a country where we have a future.. where we can progress, because being stuck here, in 10 years we will be in the exact predicament as we are today.  My husband doesn't need citizenship, I have an idea for the immigration problems about crime and citizenship.. don't give people citizenship until they are 80, who cares.. just give them the oppertunity to raise their families and WORK, and if they commit a crime, then take action.

I am not against immigration but illegal immigration. I have relatives who have taken ten years to get permission to live. I agree the immigration laws need to be changed. But when you break a law you must be willing to pay the consequence. Your husband can live here as long as you are legally married so what is the problem?

If your husband wants to live and work in the USA then he needs to be here legally and be a USA citizen and thats the way it is and a
lways has been and always will be. AS SOON AS THE US. BECOMES LITTLE MEXICO I WILL LEAVE.

"Your husband can live here as long as you are legally married so what is the problem?"

This is not true as Jessica has learned the hard way.  In fact, a person can live here without ever committing a crime and still be ineligible for permanent residence through marriage. 

"If your husband wants to live and work in the USA then he needs to be here legally and be a USA citizen and thats the way it is and a
lways has been and always will be."

This is certainly not true--there are ways to live here legally without being a citizen.  Unfortunately, there are many more ways to be disqualified from doing this. 

Thank you so much Dave for saving me the trouble of explaining.  He is exactly right, I have NO problem doing things the right way.  As a matter of fact, we have the application for his visa ready.. but haven't sent it in because we learned of the immigration laws, which forbids my husband to be in the U.S. for the rest of his life.. but since he is married to me (a U.S. citizen) after 10 years he will be allowed to apply for a waiver on grounds of inadmissibility.  And that "ban" is not for commiting a hynious crime, just for crossing the border illegally and staying more than a year, which reminds me.. he did his time for that, thus the reason we are here in the first place.  Also it really irritates me that people are NOT familiar with the immigration laws and just assume that if a foriegner is married to a U.S. citizen they are automatically allowed to be a citizen.. ESPECIALLY since president CLINTON is the one who changed that.. like what over 10 YEARS AGO!  Do your research first and then speak about immigration.  The laws are not fair to me or my Daughter.  We also are now "banned" for the USA in order to be with our loved one.  Quite ridiculous.  There are many people (U.S. citizens) in this prediciment.. selling their homes to move to Mexico to be with their spouse.  Look around a little, and it is not just women either, their are men married to Mexican women who are going through the same thing, with kids.  Not to mention my Mother and family who are missing out on my Daughter's life.  It is not just punishing my husband, rather my husband, our Daughter, myself and ALL of my family.

And Nancy, it already is "Little Mexico" so you better start packing your bags.  And with all the U.S. citizens moving to Mexico, people should stop complaining about whites being the minority.. HELLO!

David , Mr. Philadelphia Attorney; I was dissapointed that your eloquent and creative writing seemed poised to convince those that are less educated than you that Immigtation enforcement served no purpose at this time. You might start by looking in your own "back yard". Then you can clearly see the Negative Socio-Economic impact of OUT-OF-CONTROL ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION...
Apparently you haven't noticed the overcrowded Schools, stressed education budgets, Overburdened Medical Systems, State Budget Crisises, Day Laborers standing on Street corners, and . I shouldn't mention crime and overbudget Penal Institutions, as this may offend you along with other realities.

You give the impression that this is the land of milk and honey, just like the one that everyone outside these borders has, and that there is an endless amout of everything for everyone. The true reality is that resources are obviously not unlimited.

David, I beleive that I was eating beans and tortillas before you were born, and as a Legal Immigrant, I can see that your outlook is very one-sided and you would serve yourself and others more if you broadened your outlook and had a more realistic perspective.

SB-2611 , the Senate Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill was clearly and overwhelmingly defeated for many of the above reasons. In just 10 years, it would have added 25-30 Million foreign workers and their dependents, affected almost all occupations and decimated american workers and their families. The tax burden over this period would have been overwhelming as well.

While I appreciate your writing skills and education; there is much, much more to consider and present regarding your subject, even though it appears you make your living from Immigration.

At this point and at the current rate of Immigration David, I believe that we have set a pattern that will translate into a population problem in the future. We should consider stabilization at this point, and for the future. we should return to traditional levels of Immigration. Immigraition is not the sollution to all of the problems of underdeveloped countries; but it certaily draws infinite sympathy, absent of a sensible outlook. If we take one MILION people annually into the U.S.; the 3d  world adds 81 MILLION anually. This is not a sollution, if that is the outlook.



David, thank you for your open-mindedness.

Legal Immigrant